While We’re Waiting…
January 16, 2009Tribe Invite 16 Minor Leaguers to Goodyear
January 16, 2009
If we have learned anything through this whole circus of finding a new head coach and general manager for the Cleveland Browns, it is that Randy Lerner is focused. Maybe even to a fault, Lerner appears to have had his sites set on certain individuals, and then fixates on them until they either turn us down (Cowher), sign with us (Mangini), or sign elsewhere (Pioli).
Lately, he’s been hot on the trail of Baltimore’s George Kokinis. And while we have heard rumors of other possible general managers like Chris Polian and Ted Sundquist, I think it speaks volumes towards these “rumors” when certain individuals have not even been considered for an interview. And even worse is when said individuals are actually lobbying to get a shot.
“I feel like I’ve got a lot of experience to offer a club and I’d love the opportunity to get back to running a team again,” said Sundquist. “It’s a very intriguing opportunity.”
After his team missed the playoffs in two straight seasons, Sundquist was asked to step down from his role with the Denver Broncos. He had started from the bottom of the front office, and ultimately worked his way up to the general manager position, which speaks well towards his work ethic. However, his main strength was thought to be his drafting and free agent acquisitions and the product on the field did not mimic this.
There have been rumors that Sundquist was the “fall guy” for Mike Shanahan, who looks to had been given one year to right the ship. As seen by his recent firing from the Broncos, said ship was not righted. The ongoing debate will be on how much say Sundquist actually had when he was given the GM spot, as Shanahan was heavily involved in a lot of the decision-making.
During Sundquist’s six years as Broncos GM, he is technically responsible for the trading of Clinton Portis for Champ Bailey. He drafted players like Jay Cutler and Tatum Bell. But of all of his transactions, Browns fans will remember Sundquist as the man who traded Reuben Droughns for (then 
Browns) defensive linemen Mike Myers and Ebenezer Ekuban. He traded a fourth-round draft choice for “Big Money” Gerard Warren, and then signed him to a six-year extension. Yes, six years. As free agents, Sundquist added Alvin McKinley, Kenard Lang and Corey Jackson. All quite baffling moves in any light.
Obviously, Droughns went on to rush for over 1,000 yards with a not-so-good Browns team and was then moved to the Giants for the ever so wonderful Tim Carter. Not like the Browns capitalized on the trades of Myers and Ekuban, but I assume that it is better than trading for them.
Whether or not Lerner considers all of these moves when he thinks of Sundquist is unknown. I cannot imagine that the would-be general manager puts these transactions on his resume, but they will likely always be remembered by Browns fans.
24 Comments
Cmon folks……it’s Kokinis or bust for Lerner. The invisible man decided upon Kok during his love-fest with Mangini. It’s entirely in Kok’s hands; the odds that he won’t capitalize on Lerner’s blank check is slim to none.
The credible candidates dropped out on their own, some upon learing of the absurdity of the owner stepping in and making a coaching hire (Piolo, McKay, Heckert…et al). What remain are out of work failures (Sundquist, Harris) or neophytes (Chris Polian) who would take the gig under any terms and conditions. Lerner is both faking the process as an open play as well as finding a Mangini love-in should Kokinis stay with Baltimore, unlikely as that is.
This is worse than a soap opera, it’s total incompetence. You’ll get your updates via the media since the invisible man won’t speak to his customer/fan base.
Lerner likes Mankok!
Isn’t this also the GM who signed Courtney Brown after his awful tenure with the Browns? That just makes me shiver. Please be patient, Lerner… this isn’t the guy for the job.
Seems to me there was a linebacker / d line coach hired by the Broncos also, who may have suggested getting them ( Brown, Warren, et al.). Can’t remember his name, but that may have had something to do with them going after our rejects. At any rate, he could have scouted before he signed them. No thank you, and godspeed to you Mr. Sundquist.
Going back to 2001, Denvers defense ranked overall…
2001: 8th
2002: 6th
2003: 4th
2004: 4th
2005: 15th
2006: 14th
2007: 19th
So I’d like to know when Shanahan started getting really involved in the GM decisions? does anyone know? Because if Sundquist was in charge for 2002-2004 range and then shanahan started getting involved that makes a big difference.
The Browns old lineman actually played well for the Broncos, many thought Big Money was a good acquisition for them and Courtney played a few good games and got injured, but they never gave him and serious money. They’ve always had good Defenses, except the past couple years.
@Chris M
That would be Andre Patterson, former Browns D-line coach.
RandyOSU….you must really hate waking up in the morning. Lets give the new regime a chance huh? It may be nice to have a GM and Head Coach who see eye to eye.
Did you want Pioli and Ferentz instead?
MacNip-a bit testy my friend? Are you such a sychophant that nobody is allowed to take issue with Randy Lerner?
For the record, I’m not for Pioli or Ferentz, ok?
By all means, give the Mankok regime a chance-enjoy. I also hope whoever sits in my seats during this three year episode is right there with ya, that way I’ll make more on the seats.
I’m not buying what Lerner is selling……….he’s incompentent. But, with folks like you…….he’s rich!
Note to posters:
Macnip rule: all Browns posts must be positive and cheerfully in support of anything and everything they do. Forum for positive spin only, other views not accepted.
That’s right….I am a positive guy. I don’t judge situations before I see any type of result. I am not quick to trash an idea before it is actually tested. But, thats just me. I’m also not nieve enough to think I know more than the owner of the team about how to run a football team.
So, for the record, you are against the Browns owner, GM, coach and coordinators. Have you told us who you want yet? Oh wait, that’s right, you just criticize for the sake of criticizing. You don’t actually think of solutions because then you may actually have a positive thought.
In the grand scheme of things, everyone turns you down, goes with you, or goes elsewhere. Where is the fourth option?
I’m leery to inject myself into such a lively discussion, I don’t mean to interfere… but there are two points I’d like to address, and MacNip/RandyOSU’s discussion provides a jumping-off point.
1- Being a fan, or an optimist, does not require one to be a sycophant. One can be a critical thinker, and even be critical of one’s team, and it does not make one a pessimist. In this case, I believe Lerner has done nothing to deserve any trust from anyone at this point, he hasn’t earned it, and to blindly believe in every move he makes would just make me a sycophant, not an optimist. It’s hard to be optimistic when the guy calling the shots gives every indication that he’s not learning from his mistakes. I’ll be an optimist as to Mangini’s success, but I still compare his hiring to treating cancer with a band-aid, and I’ll continue to be critical of the rotten foundation that exists in Berea. I’ll be optimistic when I see the core of the organization being addressed and developed for long-term success, but that’s just me.
2- @MacNip – you suggest RandyOSU is “criticizing for the sake of criticizing” and is wrong for not offering up any alternatives. I’m sorry man, I don’t want to come off as picking on you, but I see this sentiment posted a lot, and it’s based on a false premise. I’ll speak in terms of my own opinions… I don’t like the decision to hire Mangini before getting a GM in place. That doesn’t mean I can’t offer that opinion without knowing exactly who the GM is that I would hire–I’m not an NFL executive. I don’t work for a search firm that consults with NFL owners to help them hire GMs or HCs. That doesn’t mean I can’t point out obvious red flags based on, say, my experience in management, or as a consultant in other industries. To suggest that criticism isn’t valid without providing an alternative is a red herring… to draw an analogy, I’ve broken off relationships with women that I knew weren’t right for me–I’m sure we all have. At the time, I sure didn’t know who Mrs Right was, or who I was going to end up, but it would be preposterous to suggest that knowing who the ultimate person was, or even having options lined up, is a prerequisite for taking action. Quite the contrary, I’d maintain there is an obligation to address the situation (ie, criticize) when it is clear that things aren’t right.
I’ll step out of the line of fire now…
@mj – why did you want to hire the GM first? Do you think we are missing on better GM candidates than what Kokinis can offer, due to the fact that they won’t work with Mangini? I realize that hiring a coach before the GM can cause a major issue if the GM is not ‘on board’ with the coach, but that hardly seems the case with Mangini and Kokinis. Manigini is cool with Kokinis as his boss and Kokinis is cool with Mangini being his coach, which is already a huge positive over what we had with our previous coach and GM.
Lerner is trying to model the team after what they do in Pittsburgh and New England. I don’t have any issue with that. He is trying to find a coach/GM combo that will work as a unit towards a common goal. I also have no problem with that. He saw an opportunity to hire an experienced coach (only 3 years, but at least some experience) and took it. I mean, that is what we wanted as fans right? An experienced coach, no more inexperienced college/coordinators that don’t know how to run a team. Mangini did a good job in NY. Two winning seasons out of 3. We have had 2 winning seasons in 9 years. Honestly, Mangini is still the coach in NY if Brett Favre doesn’t turn into DA at the end of the year. How do you coach a team when a QB throws 9 interceptions to 2 TDs in his last couple of games?
The Browns lost a lot of their games this year due to poor preparation in analyzing their next opponent. That is not why NY lost games this year. That is a HC’s main responsibility. I like that Manigini is bring solid preparation to this team.
Who else did people want as a coach? Cowher, Holmgren and Shannahan are all taking a break. I like the fact the Browns have someone with experience and a bit of an ego.
MacNip – Trying to model the Browns after the Steelers? I see no evidence of that fact–do you? Honestly?
I tend to agree with your opinion of Mangini. He may succeed, he may not, but Mangini is not the problem. He may have been the best candidate for the job, he may not have… but for Randy to tell us he is, when you consider he interviewed so few candidates and conducted only a cursory search, well it’s a tough sell, at best. What I see is that this is the second time that Randy has been “wowed” by the first candidate he interviewed and fell in love with. We saw how it worked out the first time.
Since you bring them up, let’s talk Steelers. A franchise that established an organizational identity and a sound personnel philosophy. They’ve hired only three coaches in what, 40 years? Is that because Rooney is the best evaluator of HC talent in the league? Doubtful. The HC is the last piece of the puzzle for them. When it comes time to find a HC, they identify someone that fits in with their organizational philosophy, is a capable tactician and leader, and who carries themselves professionally, and then they make him the face of the franchise. Many folks would argue one does not need to be an elite, superstar coach to succeed as HC of the Steelers… you pretty much just have to not f*@! up what they’ve already done. Lerner has no organizational foundation or philosophy to speak of, and as evidenced by this latest hiring process, is doing things exactly backwards from what Pittsburgh has done. To suggest he is following their model is beyond absurd, and if you believe this is the sort of foundation that Lerner is building, you’re willfully ignoring reality.
As for The Patriots… please name one place that model has succeeded outside of New England (or how Lerner has tried to develop that here, short of hiring NE castoffs.) I’ll wait. Based on the lack of success of other teams who have attempted to mimic that model, and the massive failures of those that have left the organization for supposed greener pastures elsewhere, it becomes clear that there is one thing that makes the model work, and his name is Bill Bellichick. If you can show me where this system has worked without Bellichick as the anchor, I’m all ears… I contend it doesn’t exist outside NE.
If you can show me one single team–just one–that has succeeded by doing things the way Lerner has, and making the kinds of poor decisions he has–then I will reconsider my criticism of him. But to this point, in six years as owner, he has yet to make one good decision to do earn any benefit of the doubt. And to blindly believe in everything he’s done, when the only thing he is to this point is a proven failure, is foolish, plain and simple. That’s not being optimistic, it’s delusional. It may very well work out–as a Browns fan, I hope it does–but having it work by accident or blind luck is not the same as maximizing your probability for success through careful research and analysis, reliance on experts, and sound decision-making… all of which Lerner carefully avoids.
Lerner’s mistake last time was that he didn’t try to model the NE front office, he tried to use a NE coach and just hope everything fell into place. I think he also is trying to model the team after Pittsburgh when Cowher was there. Cowher and his GM shared a personnel philosophy.
Lerner realizes that the current Browns have no philosophy so he is bringing in a coach and a GM who see eye to eye on that philosophy. What we need to hope for is that Mangini and Kokinis’ philosophy is the correct one. If it is, then we will have established an organization that can go forward. Pittsburgh already has the model in place and they are carrying it out. The Browns are trying to establish the model.
Lerner deserves criticsm for his mistakes in the past. He is trying a new approach this time around. I like the way our head coach thinks and I think Kokinis has done an excellent job bringing free agents into Baltimore that fit their system. It seems like he and Manigi will be able to create a plan of action and stick to it…leveraging each of their strengths.
As for Sundquist…..no thank you. Way too many poor decisions in the past
“@mj – why did you want to hire the GM first? Do you think we are missing on better GM candidates than what Kokinis can offer, due to the fact that they won’t work with Mangini? I realize that hiring a coach before the GM can cause a major issue if the GM is not ‘on board’ with the coach, but that hardly seems the case with Mangini and Kokinis. Manigini is cool with Kokinis as his boss and Kokinis is cool with Mangini being his coach, which is already a huge positive over what we had with our previous coach and GM.”
———–
Just wanted to expound on this. It’s not just a matter of who’s the GM, or who’s hired first, MacNip. It’s organizational philosophy. I mean, if the big criteria is getting along with and being on the same page as the coach, hell, I’d be perfectly happy to take the $3m/yr that Phil Savage was making, and they could hire Satan as HC and I’d make sure I got along with him just fine… the only thing anybody talks about is how they need to get along. Yes, they should. As the primary and damn-near only criteria? It’s preposterous.
We have a team president who, after several years in the role, had to introduce himself to the media at Mangini’s “press conference.” We have an owner who’s doing his best Howard Hughes impersonation, yet refuses to hire qualified people to handle public relations. We have a franchise who’s highest-ranking executive seemingly violates HIPAA laws and gets into a public spat with one of his elite players over his health, and sends profane emails to fans. A team whose play on the field has been, what, last place all but one year under current ownership? I mean, we could go on and on with all the examples of how this organization has failed, whether it be on the field, in the front office, in the public eye, you name it… the list is virtually endless.
I don’t want a certain GM, or a certain coach. I want to see qualified people running a respectable organization. I want to see the foundation built before some jackass runs around trying to put the roof on. I don’t want my favorite team to be a national laughingstock anymore. I want to see a solid, respectable franchise who can attract qualified, successful professionals who want to come work here, not see everyone withdrawing their names from consideration because the job is a joke. One need only look down the street to Quicken Loans Arena to see what a professionally-run organization looks like, and the contrast is stark indeed.
If you don’t see that the problems run much deeper than who is hired as head coach, then I don’t know what else to say.
“Lerner deserves criticsm for his mistakes in the past. He is trying a new approach this time around.”
Wow. Just, wow…
He has taken the exact same approach this time around. Both times, he has refused to rely on NFL experts for advice. Both times, he has not conducted a broad search for talent. Both times, he has fallen in love with the first person he interviewed, and made up his mind about a coach before a GM. And both times, he is unable to take his blinders off and give serious consideration to anyone outside the Bellichick tree.
Leadership starts at the top. If everyone is going to report to Randy, then he needs to establish the tone. The Rooneys do in Pittsburgh… when their coaches leave, the organization doesn’t shift and change philosophy. Great, we go with the Kokinis/Mangini philosophy. Until one leaves. That doesn’t happen in Pittsburgh, or in Indianapolis, or in NE… The philosophy is not determined by who the current infatuation is… it’s established at the top. By qualified football people. Randy freely admits he’s not a football guru, yet he refuses to hire people who are. Until he establishes that foundation, any success will be through luck, and it will be temporary and fleeting. Either Randy will suddenly become that qualified NFL person, or he’ll realize he needs someone to fill that position (unlikely in light of his current arrogance), or he’ll sell the team to someone who does. Until that time, this will remain a third-rate organization.
I’ve enjoyed discussing this with you, but I’m all talked out about it at this point…. enjoy your weekend…
One last burn… they sent out their 2nd-year backup quarterback and offensive lineman to field questions from the media after firing both their HC and GM, and somehow the guy that does that deserves credit for trying to do things the right way? What an absolutely shameful embarrassment…
I understand your concerns, I share most if not all of them. Unfortunately, Lerner does not have the time to rebuild the entire organization right now. He needs to find a GM and a coach. He has found 2 people who have done well in their current roles and are willing to work as a team. Both are qualified for what they are being hired to do. A little different than hiring satan. 🙂
I have been rooting for the Browns for longer than I care to remember. I can’t wait for a winner…..hopefully it will come next year
…all the “stuff” aside, I just think it’s strange that in the NFL people write-off things as failures before anything occurs on the field. I’m sure that Patriots fans thought the season was lost when Brady got hurt. They went 11-5 with their BACKUP. Was that in the cards (honestly)? No, it wasn’t.
Sometimes, things work when you don’t expect them to, that’s why fans are optimistic (not sycophantic) about the move. Same players, new people at the top – you never know – it could work.
“Unfortunately, Lerner does not have the time to rebuild the entire organization right now. ”
Nothing personal, MacNip, but that’s the most idiotic thing I’ve read here. You really are snowed if you believe that.
My brother just built a new house. Saying Lerner “doesn’t have time” to build properly is just as foolish as my brother trying to put the walls up, the windows in, and get the siding on because he “didn’t have time” to pour the foundation.
It’s a matter of one hire. One single hire. A qualified football executive to make the decisions that Randy lacks the experience and expertise to make. He shouldn’t be interviewing HCs and GMs and pretending to be the expert. One singular focus on finding one person to rebuild. Look at what Bill Parcells did in that role.
What the hell is he so busy with, that you say he “doesn’t have time” to hire the right people? That is the only thing he is supposed to do.
As BQ would say, ‘now I’m done.’
If Randy Lerner is not qualified to hire a head coach or GM, then what makes him qualified to hire a football executive who will then hire a head coach or GM?
Doesn’t make any sense to me.
@mj – Say you brother has a foundation already that will get his house through the next year. The foundation isn’t good, but it will work. Now say your brother has a very limited time table before his family moves in. He has to decide, he can either pour a new foundation, which will definitely establish a solid base for years to come. But, if he does this, his family moves into just a foundation, no walls, drywall, bathrooms, roof, etc. His other option is to build the walls on the shoddy foundation and move his family in. They will be protected in the short term, with the foundation that is already there. Your brother just needs to make sure he addresses the foundation ASAP after his family moves in. Which option do you think he chooses?
Sure, we could wait around for Lerner to build the organization from the ground up, but we would be wasting a ton of time to prepare for next year. We would miss out on all the good GM and coach candidates and be left with scraps, like RAC again.
Its not the ideal choice, but it is the only choice right now.