Today’s prompt actually came from an impromptu tweet about Kyler Murray that spawned a huge conversation on the top five quarterbacks in the NFL for this season and for the long term (three-to-five years from now), as well as Browns centric points like…how long before you take Baker Mayfield long term? What players would you bet $100 on to be on the Browns in five years? What is the Sandy Alomar quotient and why are we implementing a baseball player in a football conversation? Read on and enjoy.
Andrew: I don’t think I’m as high on Kyler as these guys. He’s very good, but sniffing top five? I dunno….
gerbs: How many other QBs would you rather have over Kyler? Or should I say QB situations (coaching staff and roster) since you guys astutely pointed out on the podcast that Lamar would not be Lamar in Cleveland
Andrew: Are we saying long term or today?
Andrew: Long term I might have him top five, I suppose. Mahomes, Lamar for sure ahead of him. Maybe Watson? Probably Watson. I don’t know, that’s a tough one. But today I’d have Wilson, Rodgers, Brees, Cam ahead of him for sure. I can’t decide if I’m starting to buy in on Josh Allen or not
gerbs: I like the Josh Allen situation I am in right now: I can root for him from afar, enjoy his huge arm, and not have to worry about his inaccurate moments
Andrew: Yeah, exactly. His highs are so good, but man does he make some atrocious throws, too
gerbs: Long term, I think Kyler is as high as No. 3 to me. For today, I take him behind everyone you listed but Cam.
Andrew: The only QBs in the league right now I would bet on to still be MVP candidates five years from now are Mahomes and Lamar. I might have Kyler third as well, but there’s a steep
drop in my opinion from those top two to the rest
gerbs: I also think Diggs is perfect for Josh Allen and definitely completes a lot of his woes: deep threat, great at positioning himself to make up some mistakes on Allen’s throws
davesterling: EXCEPT FOR BAKER FUCKING MAYFIELD
Andrew: At least in terms of being “sure things”. I do think Kyler can improve and become a QB in the same class as those guys, but I don’t see it yet
mitch: I think Russell is #2 in the NFL for several years still. He’s only 31. I guess I’ll believe it with Lamar when he shows he can consistently win big games
mgbode: Lamar Jackson reads defenses and throws to the correct guy way better than y’all giving him credit for.
davesterling: here we go. Raven-fan bode is here
mgbode: He’d be a Top 10 QB at worst on ANY team in ANY system. It is just ludicrous the excuses he gets about maybe not being as good just because the Ravens made a smart plan to develop him. (edited)
gerbs: We all have said he’s the second best QB in the game
maybe 30 depending on how Minshew develops
gerbs: Well except Derv Snerling and Mitch who said Russell
mgbode: Lamar would be Lamar outside Baltimore though.
davesterling: Lanore Jacksom
gerbs: Luckily for Baltimore fans we will never know what Lamar would be outside of Baltimore
mgbode: On Kyler… long-term he is in the group with Mahomes and Jackson as the elite youngsters which is really all that matters.
Andrew: @mitch I suppose it depends on our definitions of long term
mgbode: Picking between young Kyler and Wilson would be a fascinating proposition.
Andrew: Five years from now, Wilson will be 36. I don’t think he’ll still be elite at that age
mgbode: But he might be. Look at Brees and Brady.
Andrew: For sure. I’m definitely not saying it’s impossible
mitch: Yeah, and I don’t think that much of Wilson’s success is based on his athleticism
mgbode: That is what is so interesting… Wilson more proven but older versus Kyler less proven but younger.
Andrew: I think his mobility is the edge that pushes him from very, very good to great. But I dunno.
mitch: Mahomes is the clear top guy, and then after that, for the next three years minimum, Wilson is an easy number two for me
mgbode: Mahomes might jave the most trouble with age but a long ways off.
Andrew: Yeah, Mahomes is just so young
mgbode: He makes poor passing decisions but throws so hard and accurate they work out.
mitch: Sure he’s mobile, but he’s not a running QB by any means. Rodgers can still move around in the pocket. That’s all Wilson needs to be able to do, and I think Wilson is the better athlete
gerbs: Long term, how long before you take Baker?
Andrew: Let’s see: Mahomes, Lamar, Kyler, Watson all ahead of Baker for sure
mgbode: I view Baker like Bernie.
gerbs: Means more to us than them, Bode?
mgbode: A guy who can help you win but not really the elite guy who is why you win.
gerbs: Means more to us than them, Bode?
mgbode: Also yes… I like that
gerbs: I call that the Sandy Alomar quotient
mitch: I put Wilson ahead of Baker five years from now easily
Andrew: Wilson is a maybe for me. I mean, if we’re talking total systems, Wilson is definitely in a better situation even with Pete Carroll’s age
mitch: Lol I’m gonna bring Russell Wilson up every week now
Andrew: Five years from now the Browns will likely be two head coaches in the future
mitch: I feel like Wilson hasn’t been in a situation that truly lets him shine
mgbode: What about Cam? Too worried about his injuries?
Andrew: The odds of Baker still being the Browns QB are minimal
mgbode: I mean, Baker would be closer to him than Russ for me.
mitch: Cam and Russ are the same age
Andrew: I’m a big Cam guy. But I worry way more about Cam’s injuries
mitch: But it feels like Russ is going to last much longer
mitch: Josh Allen or Baker?
Andrew: That’s the tough one I’ve been debating in my head
mgbode: Baker for now… but either could work. Same tier.
Andrew: I’m just not sure I can buy in to Allen, but he’s looked pretty darn good this year
mitch: he’s a stars and scrubs roster in human form
mitch: It’s sooooo hard to compare those two because Allen has had more success and surrounded by a good team, and Baker…has not. I trust Baker more, but if you told me five years from now that Josh Allen was an elite QB or out of the league, I’d believe you either way. (edited)
Andrew: If was SURE that Baker could re-find his confidence, I would take him over Allen. I have always liked Baker’s upside more
Andrew: I don’t want to answer that. I mean, today the answer is Baker
mitch: yes we’re talking longterm though. I ask the hard hitters Andrew
Andrew: I mean today my answer for long-term is Baker. Just because Burrow is SO unproven
gerbs: Mahomes
Lamar
Russell
Kyler
DeShaun
Baker?
Fully aware I’m taking on the Sandy Alomar quotient here
mitch: you know who’s low-key in this conversation? G Minshew
Andrew: Oh man, I just do not know how to judge him
Andrew: Oh my gosh, I can’t believe we all forgot about Dak. I think you have to have him ahead of Baker. He’s in the Watson realm.
mitch: Rounding out the young QBs is Haskins and Daniel Jones, so that’s pretty much everyone now
gerbs: so we have…
Mahomes
Lamar
Russell
Kyler
DeShaun
Dak
Baker?
mitch: I would flip flop Lamar and Russell and I’m in agreement. You know who could be in this conversation too? Ryan Tannehill. there are lots of good quarterbacks guys
Andrew: I’m not a big Tannehill guy. I think he’s mostly just….fine.
gerbs: I don’t know that I trust Tannehill more than Baker but I also understand that he’s been great in Tennessee
mitch: he’s definitely a fool me once kind of guy, but he’s been SO good. also, don’t look it up: how old is Tannehill?
gerbs: Holy crap no way he’s that old
mitch: I have no clue. He’s older than Cam and Russ. It makes no sense
Andrew: He’s been in the league since 2012. WOW
davesterling: And Burrow’s coaching future is unknown. Other than the Brown family is so cheap they wont pay coaches to not coach, so maybe we do know
mitch: I like Tannehill I’m a sucker. Also, I kinda feel bad for Burrow getting stuck in Cincy\
gerbs: Andrew Luck should have been in this conversation and it sucks
Andrew: Mike Brown gave Dave Shula 4.5 years. Bruce Coslet then got 4.5 years. Dick LeBeau was the only one to get a “quick hook” at three years. Dick LeBeau’s term would be an institution in Cleveland. Can you imagine having the same coach for three full seasons??. The last Browns coach to get at least three full seasons was Romeo, lol. And that’s the ONLY coach to get three full seasons since they’ve been back
mgbode: Wait, are we all sure DeShaun is in THAT group?
mgbode: 5 years from now with the amount of hits he has taken …
Andrew: That’s definitely a fair concern for him
mitch: Watson is fantastic and has a pile of gym shoes for an O-Line
mgbode: Same goes for Burrows. I think he is better than Mayfield. But, he might be destroyed in Cinci w/ that OL. On talent I would take either over Mayfield… I just think they might go Andrew Luck.
Andrew: Yeah, if the Bengals can’t protect Burrow, he’ll develop happy feet in the pocket eventually.
mgbode: or he’ll just be out of the league. One reason I’m glad we rebuilt the OL we destroyed before drafing a QB. At least mostly and got it back to be going soon thereafter.
mitch: that’s fair, but also injuries are hard to predict
mgbode: it’s not just injuries… it’s hit-hit-hit-hit and how that affects a guy
mitch: Luck had a pretty decent O-Line for some of his career, I think Luck left because he’s smart, not because of his O-Line
mgbode: Everyone gets hurt in the NFL, I think guys like Couch, Carr, Luck lose that edge to play through all things realizing it isn’t stopping.
Andrew: It for sure happened to Couch. He was really good, but he broke down mentally as the hits kept piling up.
mgbode: But, maybe Luck just exited given he made his money and was smart enough to weigh w/ the OL not being a big concern or internal bias.
mitch: On talent alone, I feel 100% confident that Watson is a top-five guy long term. I agree with you that he takes a lot of hits, but he’s also insanely mobile and athletic and hasn’t missed time to injury since his rookie year i don’t think. I guess I’m also thinking from my fan brain, since I just really enjoy watching Deshaun Watson play QB
mgbode: Yes, I agree there or at least close enough to be within the group. Mahomes/Jackson/Kyler all ahead, he’d be somewhere in the Wilson/Burrows group… maybe with Dak too?
Then, the group after are the guys like Cam, Baker, Allen
Assumes Rivers/Rodgers/Brady/Brees/Ben gone or diminished.
Andrew: So, thinking five years from now. Just curious, how many current Browns would you bet $100 are still on the team for the 2025 season? Myles might be the only one for me.
Andrew: Oh yeah, Jed for sure. Been so happy with him so far
mgbode: And Greedy, maybe possibly – whichever one of those stays less injured
Andrew: Denzel’s injuries scare me. I don’t doubt his ability, but Denzel’s body has a very slight makeup
mgbode: Delpit another possibility
Andrew: I wouldn’t bet on Delpit. I hope he is, but I wouldn’t bet
mgbode: Probably a better chance of Hunt than Chubb (based on payments)
Andrew: I think Myles and Jed are the only ones I would put up $100 for
gerbs: Delpit would be on his free agency year?
Andrew: Without knowing how his achilles heals or even how good he actually is, I just wouldn’t bet real money on him
gerbs: Good point on Delpit’s Achilles
mgbode: fair. Bitonio might be 3rd safest
Andrew: Yeah, I was debating Bitonio
mgbode: I want to say Conklin because he is so much fun too.
Andrew: Sure, I definitely HOPE Conklin. I’d love to have Jed, Joel, and Jack all still manning the line in 2025. But five years in the NFL is so long. Is Bitonio the only player who has been on the Browns for five years?
mgbode: I would have said we need a 5th J but Teller has been good. Maybe it’s actually Wjatt?
Yeah, it’s just Bitonio from 2015… the Dwayne Bowe season
mgbode:
Pettine
DeFillippo
O’Neil
That was just 5 years ago!
Andrew: Joe Haden should still be a Brown
gerbs:JC won’t be here, but Nick Harris might
mgbode: I hope Harris build strength and becomes good.
mitch: khadarel hodge, mark it down
mgbode: Wait… do we consider Hawkins still with the team since he sort of is as a non-player
Oh… hang on
@Andrew!!! How could we forget the indomitable Charlie Hughlett!! Long-snapping in Brown and Orange since December 2014
Andrew: Oh my gosh, hahahaha. You’re right!!
mgbode: Suck on that Patriots
WFNYCraig: You guys talk too much. Can we go back to the Bode statement that Lamar would become Lamar no matter where he was drafted? That’s categorically false in a league like the NFL. You act like he’s a pitcher developing a repertoire and going one-on-one with batters. It’s just not so. Lamar couldn’t have become Lamar in Cleveland with four coaches in three years. He couldn’t have become Lamar with Freddie Kitchens and the Dorsey Offensive Line experiment of 2019. Lamar likely couldn’t become Lamar in Vegas with Chuckie checking everyone else’s ego. Lamar became Lamar in Baltimore, and could have done so in a handful of other scenarios, but it’s maybe the only place he becomes MVP no matter how brilliant he is or how insanely great his work ethic is.
Andrew: I agree with just about all of that. I just didn’t want to have the argument today, haha. I’m sure many thought I was being hyperbolic when I said five years from now the Browns will likely be two head coaches in. the future, but I wasn’t. I said that even before I looked up just how hard it is for a Browns coach to get even more than two years. I just don’t think any QB can find any kind of real success when you do what the Browns have done organizationally over the last 20 years
mgbode: That’s categorically false.
Impossible to prove a theory that you pose, but I’ll pose one myself… would we have had 3 HC and 4 OC if we drafted Lamar instead of Baker? I pose we would not have.
Andrew: I very much disagree with that, but that’s ok.
mgbode: In Vegas, Lamar would be an athletic Rich Gannon… I think Chuckie can make that play.
Andrew: I think Hue still gets fired, I think Gregggggg isn’t kept, I think Freddie is hired, I think Freddie is still a disaster and hurts Lamar’s development and then Freddie is fired
mgbode: We don’t hire Haley if Lamar is the pick. So, we would need to start there. (edited)
Andrew: Why do you say that?
mgbode: Haley was picked because Baker was thought to be a Ben-style QB. Mobile in the pocket and accurate with a good arm. It is a much different calculation for Lamar.
Andrew: Hmmm. Maybe. I suppose I can buy that. Don’t get me wrong, either, I’m not solely blaming everything on just bad coaching hires. But I don’t feel like it’s a crazy coincidence that so many good QBs are developed in situations with loads of stability
gerbs: Interesting that you reference Ben, I always heard Brees as the comp
Andrew: That was my memory of it as well. I don’t think I’ve ever thought of Baker as a Big Ben type QB, but it’s possible some did. That’s the part I can buy.
gerbs: A more athletic Brees was almost 100% what I remember
gerbs: Which is a very different QB than Big Ben
Andrew: But I can see the logic of bringing in Haley to develop Baker to be a Big Ben type QB. I just don’t recall that being a thing. I honestly don’t know how much of a plan the Browns really had. It was so clear from the start that Haley and Hue weren’t going to get along. And the Freddie/Monken pairing was just as awful. It’s why I’m so encouraged that Stefanski and AVP at least SEEM to be on the same page
mgbode: Point on Baker / Ben was the system that Haley had Ben running in Pitt was very similar to the style that was thought to be best. Pocket-first w/ some mobility to extend but “throw-not-run” QBs. Rely on accuracy. Ben has a bigger arm, but I’m not sure that is all that different than Brees either (other than physical size).