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February 27, 2015LeBron James and Kyrie Irving out for Friday night’s game at the Indiana Pacers
February 27, 2015Question: Among all of the beloved Cleveland Indians of the 1990s, what in particular do the following players have in common: Omar Vizquel, Manny Ramirez, and Sandy Alomar? Pause and consider if you like, but don’t worry. What follows is a clue, and then the answer.
The clue is this: What Omar, Manny, and Sandy do share is what the following players do not- Kenny Lofton, Carlos Baerga, Albert Belle, Eddie Murray, Candy Maldonado, and Mark Lewis.
The answer, of course, is while the players listed above comprised the starting nine non-pitcher lineup on Opening Day in Jacobs Field’s inaugural season of 1994, only Omar, Manny, and Sandy were also starters by 1997.
That striking fact emphasizes a point made in Cleveland sportswriter Terry Pluto’s and Indians broadcaster Tom Hamilton’s book, Glory Days in Tribe Town, The Cleveland Indians and Jacobs Field, 1994-1997. This golden era of Tribe baseball rose to prominence through the development and maturation of a core of talented ballplayers. They had been nurtured and allowed to come into their own together over several seasons. Yet, once they became a pennant contender, roster stability suddenly became a thing of the past- even as their window remained open for several seasons.
It was a huge treat to speak with Terry Pluto about the book (which received an editing assist by WFNY’s Jacob Rosen). I feel like I’ve known Terry for decades, through his newspaper writing as well as through such Cleveland sports literary staples as The Curse of Rocky Colavito: A Loving Look at a Thirty-Year Slump.
Terry didn’t know me, however. I am grateful for his generosity in sharing some of his time.
Greg Popelka: I considered myself among those who were fairly well versed on the Indians of the 1990s. However, your book kind of opened my eyes to some things I didn’t know, or hadn’t considered. For example, the 1994 MLB work stoppage. When the season was cut short, the Indians were one game out in the divisional race. Plenty of folks lamented that at the time, and during the ensuing years. You note that the strike actually benefitted the Indians.
Terry Pluto: (Former Indians player development director and current GM) Mark Shapiro made the point: due to the strike, most of the other teams in Baseball suffered greatly. Fan interest and attendance sagged. Not so, in Cleveland. Interest did not suffer in the least. The fan base wanted baseball. Revenues went up (and teams relied more on ticket sales vs. today’s cable ratings). The local economy was good in the ‘90s. And then, the Browns left town.
Also, players such as Orel Hershiser and Eddie Murray may have been on the open market because of the labor uncertainty (and Hershiser had served on the player negotiating committee). The Indians were perhaps uniquely equipped to offer them two-year deals.
GP: You note the veteran leadership on those teams. A racial cross section of high-character veterans in Hershiser, Murray, Dennis Martinez, Tony Pena, and …Sandy Alomar. It’s pretty interesting that the young Alomar was among that group.
TP: Sandy Alomar could be said to have been “born at 40.” He is what people refer to as an “old soul.”
GP: Folks talk about how Sandy has the temperament to be a good manager. Myself, I kind of wonder why a beloved guy like that would want to leave the stability he has as a coach, and take a managerial position in a town where he isn’t regarded as highly. The team won’t be very good, and it will only be a temporary job.
TP: There are only about 30 manager jobs in Baseball. Tom Hamilton has commented on this. When one of those positions is offered to you- you take it. If it doesn’t work out, another manager’s job will eventually come available. An example was when Manny Acta was hired to manage the Tribe (his previous experience had been at the helm of a bad Washington Nationals team).
GP: When I think about the ‘90s Indians, one of the first images that come to my mind is Kenny Lofton streaking home from second base on a Randy Johnson wild pitch in the Seattle Kingdome.
TP: That was The Dennis Martinez Game. He outdueled Randy Johnson to send the Indians to their first World Series after being so bad, for so long. Martinez was a guy I was close to. I covered the Orioles in the 1970s, and I admired him, a lot. He’s a guy that, when he was younger, had Jim Palmer-type stuff. By the time he joined the Tribe at the end of his career, he’d quit drinking. He was throwing in the high-80s, but redesigned himself as a pitcher. He was using various pitches and arm angles.
GP: I saw that you once wrote a book with Earl Weaver.
TP: He was ahead of his time. For example, he invented using hitters’ batting average against particular pitchers, as a tool.
There was an Oriole Way, and former Baltimore executive Hank Peters brought a lot of that with him when Dick Jacobs hired him as GM in the late 1980s. Of course, the Indians never had the pitching the champion Oriole teams had. Indians GM John Hart recognized that the game had changed- instead of winning 3-2, good teams were now winning more like 8-7.
Dan O’Dowd deserves credit for his part in those Indians front offices, by the way. John Hart was the idea guy, and loved to brainstorm. You know, though, what they say about brainstorms- sometimes, all they cause is rain! Dan O’Dowd was very good at taking a vague idea and working out the details.
GP: I love the story of the legendary vision that led the 1990s Indians to take a risk and lock up young players with long term contracts. They were able to avoid testy arbitration hearings, and delayed free agency for several players. In return, the players received some insurance against injuries that would reduce their earning power.
There are too many stories out there on Randy Johnson. Revisionist history. John Hart thought he had a deal, but ended up not having a deal.
TP: There are too many stories out there on Randy Johnson. Revisionist history. John Hart thought he had a deal, but ended up not having a deal.
GP: It was known that at the time that Johnson had a bad back.
TP: Pitching drives you nuts. Who knew when Jaret Wright’s shoulder started to hurt? He threw a lot of pitches, and a lot of innings, in 1997. (And, people were legitimately calling him the next Roger Clemens.) In talking with him today, he looks fit enough to go out there and pitch right now. He has no regrets.
Wright eventually enjoyed a nice season in Atlanta, where (renowned pitching coach) Leo Mazzone redesigned his pitching delivery. The Yankees signed him to a multi-year deal, and then he got hurt again. But Wright loved the competition, and the spotlight. He was the son of major leaguer Clyde Wright, and had been around the major leagues all his life.
On the Pedro deal, his contract was a concern. Remember, Indians owner Dick Jacobs’ mandate was that the ball club needed to clear a profit of 8-10% every year. It’s why they traded Kenny Lofton, after Albert Belle left (and the team received nothing in return). The team was built on O’Dowd’s emphasis on cheaper, younger players. So money was part of it.
Dick Jacobs would have given the green light to a Wright-for-Pedro deal. But the total team payroll would not have been allowed to grow. Other moves would have had to have been made to offset the Pedro contract.
By the way, on Jacobs: One thing he did that was a factor in the ‘90s era was when he agreed to move the team from the AL East to the AL Central (in 1994, when each league went from two to three divisions). The East had the large markets and good teams like in New York and Boston. Jacobs knew they could win in the Central.
GP: You note in the book that Charlie Manuel had originally been hired as Indians hitting coach in the late 1980s, by Hank Peters. I think my jaw dropped when I learned he was shunned by several of the hitters. You mentioned Joe Carter and Cory Snyder. In recalling his swings and misses on low, outside pitches, I cannot imagine Cory Snyder being in a position to reject advice from the team’s hitting coach.
TP: (Writer) Sheldon Ocker had mentioned that Snyder relied on a family member for hitting advice, like a father or an uncle. Guys do that. Michael Brantley is known for using his dad (former big leaguer Mickey) as his hitting coach.
Manuel didn’t come up to the big leagues in the ‘80s with young guys he’d coached in the minors, like he did with the ‘90s Indians. Charlie’s southern accent has always been a factor in how others perceive him- but he is a very good coach. He wasn’t a Charlie Lau type of hitting coach, with a system that was one-size-fits-all. He would adapt to the hitter, and make him better.
GP: I never knew there was some tension between Manuel and manager Mike Hargrove.
TP: John Hart and Mike Hargrove had differing personalities. Hargrove was consistent, and preferred the routine. He often wanted to stay the course. John Hart was more volatile in his thinking. He was interested in new ways of doing things. It interesting- usually, it’s the manager who wants to make trades and not the GM. Not so, with that team. There was the time when Hart made a deal for pitcher Jeff Juden—just because he was itching to deal. Juden was the anti-Dennis Martinez. Rather than figuring out 5 new ways to pitch, Juden was one of those guys who was so physically gifted, yet enjoyed a short burst of success in spite of himself.
Nobody touched Albert’s stuff; everybody knew not to.
John Hart had hired Charlie Manuel, in his 90s stint with the Tribe. He hadn’t hired Hargrove. And everyone pretty much accepted that Manuel could be a good manager. Eventually, with the Phillies, after he left the Indians and rested up from his physical issues, he proved it.
I agree with Tom Hamilton- Mike Hargrove will never get the full credit he deserves for those ‘90s Indians. They didn’t play great fundamental baseball in some of those seasons, but the team was constructed as a lineup of hitters. Hargrove kept a clubhouse full of strong personalities together.
Hart and Hargrove were together eight years, which is notable. Most GM/manager relationships are shorter.
GP: I never minded truly talented Cleveland sports figures not getting their due credit. Hargrove not winning Manager of the Year, or Kenny Lofton not winning Rookie of the Year, or Albert Belle not winning MVP. In my mind, there was nothing wrong with keeping players, at least, as hungry as possible.
TP: I voted for Albert Belle for the Hall of Fame. Nine years of 100 RBI.
Hargrove loved Kenny, loved him. He was a guy who couldn’t bunt for a sacrifice, but could bunt for a hit. He was driven, as a player. In Atlanta, Bobby Cox wasn’t as supportive of him as Hargrove had been.
Some of those ‘90s Indians found that the grass wasn’t always greener elsewhere. Like Lofton, and Manny.
GP: I knew that Manny often borrowed others’ clothes and equipment. He was smart enough not to borrow Albert’s stuff, right?
TP: He was smart. Sandy was the big brother type who Manny knew he could easily get away with doing that with. Nobody touched Albert’s stuff; everybody knew not to.
GP: Late in 1993, I attended my last game at the old stadium. We arrived very early. I was walking with my then-2 year old daughter around the outer concourse area, like two hours before the game. Calmly walking towards us the other way, in full uniform and holding a bat, was Albert Belle. I was fully aware of his volatile reputation. As he passed us, I nodded at him and he kind of smiled and nodded back. Later I heard there were batting cages beyond center field, so he was probably returning from there. If I had asked for a photo with him and my daughter, what do you think would have happened?
TP: No clue. I have no idea. Belle was a guy who was extremely smart, and had a very good grasp of baseball history.
GP: A couple years ago, Belle, Baerga, and Lofton were photographed standing together at the beginning of spring training. The photos were terrific, with each of them smiling and laughing. I was stunned to see the broad smile on Belle’s face.
TP: Forgiveness is an issue for a lot of us. It may come easier with age. We discover that what was of utmost importance to us when we were younger may not be the be-all and end-all.
GP: Is it true, that when Manny signed with Boston, he was surprised to learn he couldn’t stay in Cleveland? That’s hard to believe, but I had heard that.
TP: He acted as if it would be the same, maybe that is what you are referring to. He tried to take clubhouse attendant Frank Mancini with him, to Boston.
GP: Was he the same guy Albert tried to take with him, to Chicago?
TP: Yes. He’s just a dedicated, strong, man of faith. Tolerant. Someone in his position has to be careful he doesn’t end up being considered as someone’s “guy.” It would cause suspicion and distrust.
On Manny, I don’t think this made the book, but once, in New York, the Yankees lodged a formal accusation of him. They thought he was corking his bat. He was ordered to present the bats he’d been using. He produced a whole bunch of the bats of the other players. He just liked to use them.
GP: In the book, you relate the internal struggle Mike Hargrove had in deciding who should start Game 7 of the 1997 World Series. He loved Charlie Nagy, but with the way he was pitching, there were warning signs. He went with Jaret Wright. One could say there were warning signs at the time with closer Jose Mesa, as well. Did Hargrove struggle with whether to continue to use him in that role?
TP: No, you go with your regular guy. With Wright, he was a very hot starting pitcher at the time. Also, Mike Jackson (who also was at the back end of the bullpen) had previously failed as a closer, elsewhere.
The ninth inning carries a unique pressure with it.
10 Comments
First of all, I am extremely jealous that you got to talk baseball with the Terry Pluto. Did you get to physically sit down with him or was it over the phone?
Indians owner Dick Jacobs’ mandate was that the ball club needed to clear a profit of 8-10% every year.
I have seen this a few times, but always forget to bookmark it when Mr. Pluto mentions it. And marked. Thanks.
Glad Terry brought up the most important part of the potential Pedro for Jaret Wright deal that lamenting fans ignore or don’t know: Pedro was about to enter free agency as one of the league’s top pitchers, and he signed with Boston the next season for a then record $75M and a 7th year option for $17M. The Tribe never, ever could have come close to that so it would have been trading your best young pitcher/apparent stud for a one year rental. Fans talk as if but for Hart’s timidity Pedro would have dominated here as long as he did in Boston. Just ain’t so: he had been with the cheapskate Expos and that year was his transition toward a big market for the biggest bucks.
Great book.
Cory Snyder infamously relied on his father for hitting advice to the exclusion of all others. Yes, this was completely true.
I also like the story of passing Belle in full uniform in the concourse. I once saw Julio Franco in almost the same set of circumstances. And it was so odd to just see a player walking past that no one bothered him or asked his autograph or anything.
Nice interview. Might have to buy the book to learn a few more “behind the scenes” type of stories.
Mgbode, it was by phone but he was extremely accommodating.
Yeah, it was so odd. I’m holding my 2 yr old’s hand, looking down at her, so I didn’t see him coming. I’m not an autograph (or memorabilia or jersey) guy, but he was right in front of us so suddenly anyway. We passed him and I looked around and exchanged ‘WTH’ eye contact with several guys nearby, like in the nearby concession line.
Lots of stuff in there on Herb Score that I really liked.
I am literally the FARTHEST thing on earth from a Dolans apologist, but it is worth remembering that Jacobs always was adamant about turning a profit. So assuming Jacobs had continued in ownership it is very likely that the payroll detonation of the early 2000s would have proceeded similarly.
I also think Jacobs was a bit shabby in floating the common stock offering with the implicit (maybe even explicit) promise of using the money raised to lock up people like Thome and Manny. When in fact that just turned out to be more or less a way to suck cash out of the fanbase before selling.
Very grateful to Jacobs for those years of the 90s, mind you. But I often think of these things when people just mindlessly rip the Dolans. My problem with them has always been more “allowed Mark Shapiro to achieve fifteen years of mediocrity” without appearing to even hint at holding him accountable. Not so much the spending. Almost all owners spend what they take in.
That’s BS on Mike Jackson vs. Jose Mesa. Jackson had given up 1 ER in 12 appearances in the playoffs that year and had just pitched 2/3 of an inning. Just leave him in. If he gives up a hit, bring in Mesa. No use saving Jackson’s arm it’s the last game of the year. If Mesa is pissed so what IT’S THE LAST GAME OF THE YEAR.