Mike Holmgren Still Undecided About QB Situation
January 27, 2010Pre-Super Bowl NFL Notes
January 27, 2010
Now that The Big Show Mike Holmgren has shored up his front office roster, it’s time for him–and for us–to look at the team’s roster. We’ve borrowed from the Department of Homeland Security and will be looking at each position group day by day, finishing with a roster upgrade ranking based on need. Check back each day this week for a new position group. Previous Reports: RB, OL, WR/TE, QB, ST, DB, LB
We are coming down to the end of our reports. Yesterday DP broke down the linebackers for you. Today’s group works hand in hand with that group. In fact, they overlap quite a bit. Guys like Wimbley, Roth and Hall find themselves on occasion with a hand on the ground as DEs. In a true 3-4 the front men have a terrible assignment. They are responsible for tying up 4 or 5 offensive linemen and filling the inside rushing lanes. They are often called upon to fill two gaps. For a beast like Shaun Rogers, that isn’t really a special task though. But the Browns went with more of an unconventional 3-4 look. They swapped players around, switched positions, and rotated more players into the game than most teams do. This was especially true after Rogers went out with an injury.
The 2009 Season
Starters: Shaun Rogers, Robaire Smith, Kenyon Coleman
Key Reserves: Corey Williams, Ahtyba Rubin, Brian Schaefering, C.J. Mosley
The defensive line got stronger as the year progressed. As the Browns were rattling off the winning streak the defensive line was peaking. That is not a coincidence. They had 3 of their best games against the rush during the streak, even including the loss to the Chargers. They held the Steelers, Chargers and Raiders under 100 yards rushing each. That’s significant for a group that finished the year ranked 28th against the run. Those stats can be somewhat misleading, as several times the Browns found themselves down big in the fourth quarter and teams ran the ball like crazy. Of course when you know they are going to run there should be some advantage you would think. Several times throughout the season the Browns D-Line held their ground on 3rd or 4th and short. The Browns stopped half of the 20 4th down plays that opponents ran against them. That’s a positive.
But they were very inconsistent for much of the year. Even in those last few weeks of the season, sandwiched between great efforts against Pittsburgh and Oakland the defense was torched for 168 rushing yards against the Chiefs.
I do think believe that some of these young players have potential. Second year man Ahtyba Rubin did an excellent job filling in for the injured Shaun Rogers. In fact, I think Rubin would start for many teams in this league at DT or NT. With both Rogers and Rubin the NT position is set. Unless of course the team trades Rogers. It has been hinted (by Terry Pluto for one) that the market value for Rogers is higher than the replacement cost, making him a nice piece to use in the trade market. That may be the case, but having both of them is certainly nothing to turn your nose at. Particularly if that means keeping Rogers fresh during the game.
Coleman was a nice surprise, and perhaps him taking Williams’ spot woke up the former Packer. Corey Williams had a monster game against Pittsburgh, and led the defensive line with 4 sacks.
Browns Roster Upgrade Advisory: Guarded
Contract Situations:
Shaun Rogers– 2010: $6.9 million, 2011: $5.5 million, 2012: $5.6 million, 2013: $5.5 million, 2014: $7 million (Voidable Year), 2015: Free Agent
Robaire Smith– 2010: $2.5 million, 2011: Free Agent
Kenyon Coleman– 2009-2010: $3 million, 2011: $2.5 million, 2012: Free Agent. Cap charges: $4.7 million (2009-2010).
Corey Williams– 2010: $4.2 million (+ $1.7 million roster bonus), 2011-2012: $4.9 million, 2013: $5.4 million, 2014: Free Agent. Cap charges: $8.83 million (2009), $8.283 million (2010).
Ahtyba Rubin– 2010: $470,000, 2011: $555,000, 2012: Free Agent
C.J. Mosley– 3/7/2009: Signed a two-year, $5 million contract. The deal includes $3 million in the first year. 2009-2010: Under Contract, 2011: Free Agent
Brian Schaefering– Undisclosed contract.
Titus Adams– 2010: $470,000, 2011: Exclusive Rights Free Agent
The truth is that unless the Browns want to go after an impact type player, the defensive line is not the biggest area of need. This line is serviceable for next season. particularly when you consider how many times the OLB moves up to the line and becomes a rush DE. The Browns do have a ton of money invested in Rogers and Williams. Rogers has trade value. Williams does not. Should the Browns decide to part ways with Rogers they would need to address the depth in the draft, or with a vet.
There is one ‘impact’ player available this off-season- Julius Peppers. The rest are restricted free agents and vets that are on the very wrong side of 30. One name that intrigues me as a restricted free agent is DE Ray Edwards from the Vikings. He is a tough run defender, and given the money that the Vikings have tied up in their D-Line already, I can’t imagine them matching much on Edwards.
Elvis Dumervil is a restricted free agent after leading the league with 17 sacks. Good timing huh? He shouldn’t be allowed to escape Denver, but if he is it will be for much more than the Browns can offer another lineman.
That leaves us with the draft. This year it appears that there may be value in rounds 2 or 3 for D-Line prospects.
DTs:
Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
Gerald McCoy, Oklahoma
Dan Williams, Tennessee
Jered Odrick, Penn State
Brian Price, UCLA
Terrence Cody, Alabama
Lamarr Houston, Texas
DEs:
Derrick Morgan, Georgia Tech
Carlos Dunlap, Florida
Everson Griffen, USC
Corey Wootton, Northwestern
Jason Pierre-Paul, South Florida
Brandon Graham, Michigan
Greg Hardy, Mississippi
And those are just the players expected to go in the first two rounds. I could easily see the Browns packaging a couple of picks to sneak back into the latter part of the second to grab a guy here that slips. Otherwise, there could be value in the 3rd or 4th this year. I’d keep an eye out for Brandon Lang from Troy. He held his own in 2008 as a junior against Ohio State, and is projected to be a fourth rounder.
19 Comments
My brother and I decided this morning that we would explore Shaun Rogers’ trade value. The Browns’ ability to stop the run when everyone plays their lanes with discipline after Rogers was out has made me think this is the best possible solution. If Rogers does stay around, I hope they move him out of the middle so he can play alongside Rubin.
But still, if Rogers is worth more than just a late first round pick or something like that, I can’t see not doing it?
What is Shaun Rogers worth? 3 picks including a late first rounder? It would be tempting to go 3 for 1 if the picks are good enough to justify it.
Craig I disagree with you
I bought his jersey this year and would like to have him on the team at least one more year to justify that purchase :-/
Well played, nullster. I still have my Winslow jersey hanging in the closet, so… yeah… there’s that.
My brother still has the Gary Baxter jersey, so he isn’t exactly feeling sympathetic to you either. 🙂
I go to school at Purdue and am surrounded by Colts fans. With the emergence of Garcon and Collie, they feel that they now have less of a need for Anthony Gonalez. Obviously, we are not fans and not the front office, but we were discussing the mutual benefits of a swap. The Colts do not have run-stuffers and Shaun would be able to fill that need. Browns are desperate for wide receivers, and Gonzo would be a hometown guy and a quite effective player. Would I do this if the Browns were currently in contention? No. Did we win more than one game when Rogers was on the field? No. I like what Shaun can do for us, but he will be 31 at season’s start. I would certainly entertain the idea of looking for some young talent to build into the future, especially with Rubin playing well.
**…we are fans and not the front office…**
My orange #17 jersey is looking very bad hanging in the closet as well.
It is an interesting thought. Gonzo turns 26 this year. Still, he didn’t even put up numbers as big as Austin Collie or Garcon when he was healthy. So the Browns would have to get more than just Gonzo for Shaun Rogers, especially with Gonzo coming off this injury.
What do you think the realistic trade value is for Rogers? Who is gonna give up a 1st for him?
Dont forget we got him for a 3rd, 5th and Leigh Bodden, and he is 2 years older now.
@Craig. You should just cross out winslow and write Robiskie. That’s what I did…and he saw about as much of the field this year for the browns as Kellen!
If the Browns ran a 4-3 I’d keep Rogers but in a 3-4 I can’t see him being able to play an end so I wouldn’t blame the Browns if they looked into what they could possibly get for him. I’d have Rogers, Anderson and even Cribbs dangling out there just to see what offers would be like for trades. I’m not big on Anthony Gonzalez if you want to make a trade go for Anquan Boldin from Arizona a WR who can make an instant impact rather then a possession/slower WR like Gonzalez.
Boogeyman,
Rogers would be a PERFECT 3-4 end. He is more naturally suited for pass rushing from the end position. The reason the Browns were getting gashed with Rogers in the middle is becuase he was pushing the center so far into the backfield, he was actually creating running lanes.
BrianRut- You hit it right on the nose. There would be no better 34 DE then Rogers. He is the most athletic 350 pound guy in the NFL. If Rogers is on the end, then they would have to have a G and T double him, then add a TE to stop the OLB who is coming on the blitz. Id take Kam over any TE.
“In fact, I think Rubin would start for many teams in this league at DT or NT.”
I could not disagree more. NT is not DT. You have to be a different type of player to be a NT. Would Casey Hampton (Pitt NT) be good in a 43? would he get into the backfield? the answer for the majority of the time is no. Shaun Rogers is a great DT. Is he a good NT? no (avg). Look at how the D got better when Rubin was there to eat blocks, not get around them. Lets look at Suh. Would anyone think of him as a NT? no. Is he a great DT though, yes. And im not trying to knock on Rogers or Rubin with this, but NT is different from DT. I love the player Rogers is, but Rubin is the better NT. My DL (if I were in position to make this call) would be Rogers-Rubin-Coleman (in that order) with Williams rotating with Rubin.
Last thing, I would be intrigued with what the browns could get back from Rogers. I think he’s worth more now then when they got him because he has been a monster these last 2 years and w/out many character issues like he had in Det. If we are looking at a 2,3 and maybe another 6 then Id pull the trigger. If it 3 low picks, then Id pass.
BrianRut – Remember though, that Detroit was desperate to get rid of him because of the disdain that had grown between Rogers and the organization. There isn’t a question of his abilities now like there was when we got him.
I don’t think that we even consider trading Rogers unless it’s for at least a mid first rounder and a mid round pick.
Peppers and Ray Edwards would be a god send for the Cleveland Browns. ESPECIALLY if we keep Rogers and have a line up of Rogers, Rubin, Edwards, Peppers, DQ, MLB X, and Kam. That’s a lot of FA money. BUT, it’d be very worth it.
In the draft I like Dunlap, the kid from Georgia Tech, Pierre-Paul. But all those guys are 1st rounders. Houston, Cody, and Everson Griffen are great value picks we may be able to get later on.
@11 Brian I can’t see Rogers applying pressure from a defensive end standpoint sorry I just can’t but the 3-4 scheme is more of a scheme for your linebackers then it is for your defensive lineman but it’ll be interesting to see what happens. I’m in the group that would like to see the Browns secondary overhauled more then anything.
Boogeyman,
Rogers would destroy any Tackle in the league using ony a bull rush, if any team was stupid enough to try to single block him. In actuality, Rogers would command a double-team every single play, thus freeing up our LBs.
@16 Um okay if you say so personally inside in a 4-3 is where I think Mr. Rogers neighborhood should be but that’s just my opinion.
I have been saying for a few weeks now, let’s trade Rogers while he has his highest value. He will be 31 at the start of the season as others have said. How much does he have left? I think we could trade him straight up for Brandon Marshall??? In the draft there are players available in the later rounds to help solidify the NT/DT position. One I am that could be a earliy 3rd rounder is Cam Thomas out of North Carolina. His stock is climbing quickly. Jared Odrick is a DE and could fall into the second round for us.
[…] has been written here before, the Browns have a ton of money invested in the defensive line. While I think that both lines are […]