On the Bernie Kosar Browns Rumors
December 10, 2009Open Thread: Browns vs. Steelers
December 10, 2009
Back in the summer when the Cavaliers dealt Ben Wallace and Sasha Pavlovic to the Phoenix Suns for Shaquille O’Neal, the overwhelming sentiment in this city was that the Cavs had found the missing piece to the puzzle. The Cavs had a big body who they could dump the ball down to, and wouldn’t be muscled around by Dwight Howard.
We read all of the articles and quotes about how the Suns training staff had rejuvenated The Diesel and what great shape he was in. During his press conference, Shaq was all smiles and comedy, telling the media how the new motto for him was “win a ring for the King.” It was all good then, wasn’t it?
Now we have hit the quarter poll of the NBA season, and one thing has become clear to my set of eyes – Shaq looks finished.
The concerns about Shaq slowing down were there when the trade was made. Looking back to the archives, our own Rock’s worries involved Shaq’s horrific pick and roll defense;
Are the Cavaliers really any more suited for defending the Orlando Magic’s pick and roll attack today than they were a few weeks ago? Absolutely not.
That exact fact killed the Cavs in Wednesday night’s loss in Memphis. The Grizzlies pick and rolled Shaq to death and it cost them twice in the last two possessions of OT. You know its bad when the opposing coach is quited after the game saying ““I was hoping [O’Neal] would still be in the game, so we could use him in the pick-and-roll.”
Rock’s overall take was panned by many commenters;
The main feeling I get from this trade, though, is a feeling of being underwhelmed. This trade doesn’t excite me. I’m not convinced this trade suddenly makes the Cavaliers the team to beat in the East, let alone in the NBA. I’m not convinced this trade was really the best Danny Ferry could get for Wallace and Pavlovic. Rather than building a team that will impress LeBron for years to come, the Cavaliers instead made the push to try to salvage one more rental year out of Shaq to see if he could bring a title to Cleveland.
What Ferry could have gotten isn’t the point, its that he took a risk in bringing in Shaq and thus far, the Cavaliers seem to play better without him than with him. Save for the big win in Orlando earlier in the year where Shaq got Howard into early foul trouble, can you say that he has been an important cog to this team’s improvement?
At this point, he is living on reputation and size. Teams don’t fear him in the post the way they used to; he no longer needs to be double-teamed. Shaq’s back to the basket game is a shell of what it used to be. Case in point, last night. The Houston Rockets play small. So small that Chuck Hayes, the man who started at Center and guarded Shaq, is generously listed at 6’7. But despite forcing the action to the Big Fella to start the game, the Cavs offense got immediatley out of sync and Shaq wasn’t able to dominate a player that he has at least six inches and 80 pounds on.
That tells me all I need to know.
The more I watch him, the less I like him on the basketball court. He hasn’t completely clogged the driving lanes they way many thought he would, but he certainly isn’t helping. The days of the big, slow, plodding “true” Center are pretty much all but over. The Cavs currently have two of them. Say what you want about Z, but he remains a threat because of his outside shot. Both are on their last legs.
The truth of the matter is that the Cavaliers are at their best when they have the ability to play small, with Lebron James at the four and Anderson Varejao at the five, with a mix of guards Delonte West, Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, Boobie Gibson, and swingman Jamario Moon. Make no mistake though – Shaq was brought in for the playoffs. Keeping him fresh was supposed to be a key factor in having him ready for the postseason. BUt the more you watch him, the older and slower he looks.
Time will tell and there is still lots of basketball to be played, but perhaps the most laughable statement of the year was made at Shaq’s opening press conference ( I am paraphrasing): “I plan of playing three more years, hopefully here.”
Not. Gonna. Happen.
AP Photo/David J. Phillip
40 Comments
Do I have to say it again?
TRADE SHAQ!!!!! I want Marc Gasol and Rudy Gay.
Do it…now…..Ferry why are you even taking time to read this…you should be calling the Grizzlies….
NOW!!
more likely to be traded at the deadline…
Shaq or Z?
Said it since August…
TRADE SHAQ!
Marc Gasol and Rudy Gay…..
Thats who I want…thats the ONLY way to win. Two players for the long run.
It’s a shame that the Cavs won’t get to make a deadline deal like the Lakers did once upon a time to get Pau Gasol.
I love everything about Shaq’s personality, but he’s done on the court.
yup, beyond that one ORL game, Shaq has been pretty unimpressive. Not that I expected THE Shaq, but whatever happened to that 17 pt average he had with PHX?
Natty, in what world are the Grizz going to make that trade. They give up young, talented, relatively cheap players for nothing? Cap space maybe, but who are they going to run out and sign that would be better than just keeping those two guys? Turns out teams in the NBA don’t sit around looking to help the Cavs at their own expense. Now if we were the Lakers….
There’s no way we re-sign him. BUT, like you said, playoffs is why he was brought here. 20 games in we can’t say he doesn’t work quite yet with all the injuries and Delonte’s situation. We have to look at the deal asking the question would the Cavs be better with Shaq or with Ben/Sasha? I def think the answer is Shaq.
We still have his deal at the deadline if we can find a trading partner. We still have Z’s deal to make ourselves better, and we can include Delonte as a defacto expiring deal too.
I was hoping we’d see Shaq involved in more pick and roll with LBJ and Mo, but that hasn’t really been in the offense. I know Shaq doesn’t have an outside game but with him taking up so much space it would allow LBJ/Mo to either drive to the hoop, take an outside shot or drive and kick. That is where Shaq could be really valuable, not just posting up down under the basket.
The thing about Shaq I’ve been least impressed with is his shooting percentage. He’s taking high percentage shots, from about 4 feet from the hoop, but he’s just not making them. Is it because he’s not able to power in and get the dunk that his percenage has gone down? I’m not sure, but he definately looks done, and I agree the Cavs look a lot better without him on the floor. I’d rather them trade shaq at the deadline than Z, don’t know if anyone will want to take on the Diesel though. Or what we could get for him. Who’s looking for a pure salary dump these days?
that pau gasol trade is looking less and less like a “steal” every day. the lakers still got the better end of it, but its hardly as lopsided as everyone thought at the time it was made. marc gasol certainly appears to be the real deal. on the other hand, ferry getting Mo Williams for joe smith and damon jones to me is actually more of a highway robbery than the pau gasol swindle.
“Who’s looking for a pure salary dump these days?”
The Dolans.
At the deadline if Toronto is basically out of it we could probably get one of Bosh or Turkyglue. That would be a Pau Gasol type trade… Shaq was not!
i dont think the cavs have enough to get Bosh. not saying it cant happen, but i dont think Z/shaq + hickson gets it done. Z/shaq+hickson+eyenga+future draft picks? ehh – i still think Toronto will end up with better options than that if Bosh is put on the market. it would certainly be a seller’s market for chris bosh. maybe another team would emerge that is looking for a straight salary dump and would have another hickson-type to include to facilitate. thats about the only way i can see anything with Bosh going down.
Is Shaq done because he’s no longer capable, or is he done because he plays for Mike Brown?
Does anyone think it would help to bench shaq every once in awhile? I mean there were games last year (mostly back-to-backs) where shaq just didnt even suit up for the Suns. Can we give Dblock a chance? He can’t be that big of a dropoff from shaq at this point especially on the defensive end
Couldn’t disagree more with your opinions on Shaq. First of all, we got rid of Sasha and Ben for him. Are you guys really saying that you miss both of them? I honestly think the Cavs will be just fine come playoff time. We had the best record in the NBA last year, and where did that get us? Who cares if we don’t win 67 games…The goal is to win a championship, not to have the best regular season record.
Shaq can’t be judged until after the playoffs.
Does anyone honestly think the Cavs have any chance of beating Orlando, Boston, or the Lakers if he is not here?
Shaw for Antwan Jameson at the deadline? The Wizards are goof no where and trade talks with Jameson were around last year so why not?!
You people talking about Z, Shaq, and Hickson or Papa who says Shaq for Jamison need to learn the rules of the NBA and know that Shaq makes $20M while Jamsion makes around $11M this year. They’d need to send back $9M in salary to us, not happening. Z+Shaq+Hickson would mean that they send us $15M in Bosh plus another $12.5M for Z and Hickson. NOT HAPPENING.
Z, Delonte, and Hickson is a deal we could do for Bosh. But, if I’m Toronto and they know Bosh won’t resign, they should make us take Hedo’s deal because that is going to be a cap killer for them for years. We COULD get a Bosh and Hedo for Shaq, Delonte, and JJ. BUT, our cap would be wasted on Hedo’s rotting corpse.
here’s a bit of reality: http://www.82games.com/0910/0910CLE2.HTM
The two 5-man units with Shaq have a negative +/- despite being our starting units (AV and Hickson beins swapped).
Our 2 most efficient 5-man units only include players we had on our team last year:
M.Williams-West-James-Varejao-Ilgauskas
Gibson-West-James-Varejao-Ilgauskas
————–
Now, I hope that it is because we are still figuring out how to play together and as Parker, Moon and Shaq continue to learn the defensive rotations and offensive sets the numbers shift. But, when the numbers back up what the eyes see….it’s hard to argue.
However, I still think the Cavs are one of the 5 teams that can win a title this year. It’s just that right now the likelihood would probably be: Lakers, Magic, Celtics, Cavs, Nuggets (no, I don’t think the Hawks, Suns or Mavericks have enough to win)
Here’s Shaq’s individual page. The main problem with dissecting these numbers is that at the bottom they only cover the guy he is covering. The pick-n-roll plays, the guy setting the pick will be the one who Shaq is responsible for….so you have to keep with the team numbers to see his true impact.
http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE14.HTM
“Jacob- I can’t believe it happened. The Cavaliers acquired a 37-year-old center who used to be the greatest player in the NBA, in an effort to do exactly what? Hope he will be able to stop the 24-year-old Superman on the Magic or provide the low-post scoring we desperately need? I truly don’t think he will save either of those faults with this team, and it is a clearly a quick-fix desperation move by Danny Ferry and company. I would have loved to see the team wait, wait and wait on the expiring contracts of Wallace and Pavlovic to see if we could eventually snag a Bosh or a Chandler. This trade shows to LeBron that Danny Ferry is truly short-minded in his thinking, and if the Cavaliers do not win a championship this season this trade will look absolutely horrible. With Z and Shaq we now have the oldest front-court in the NBA, and for all that we criticize Pavlovic, at least he was younger and better defensively than the average scrub combo forward. I really do not care for this trade at all.”
Ha that is what I said about the Shaq trade when it happened. Turned out to be pretty accurate I suppose…
Couldn’t agree more with Vince and Nicko. The reason they brought Shaq in was to help attack Dwight Howard and in the one game vs the Magic he did exactly that. He is slow, old, and can’t guard vs the pick and roll though which is the bigger problem. THE CAVS ARE NOT GETTING CHRIS BOSH!!! The worst move of the offseason was not Shaq, it was signing Verajao to a 6 year deal and leaving themselves with no salary flexibility. If Lebron resigns for the max deal, the Cavs will be over the cap and limited to the mid level exception to sign a free agent.
I didn’t expect Shaq to be this bad. However, Z is the piece that needs traded, preferably for someone not over the hill (Jamison would be nice). We won’t knock off Orl or LAL without a defensive presence in the lane. We saw last year Z is not that guy…
stop the Jamison thoughts.
if Washington traded fan favorite Jamison to the Cavs, their fans would revolt.
Yea Jamison isn’t going to happen. Bosh likely won’t. We can get something good for sure, but what that happens to be I don’t know.
Wow I wish we would have traded Wally and someone else for Amare last year.
Assuming no grand trade takes place, it looks like the team is going to have to rely on JJ Hickson to develop spectacularly in the next few months.
Can’t blame Danny Ferry for being short-sighted when LeBron holds the team hostage with his contract antics…
Anyone know of the chances we could land Kaman or Camby from Clipper land? I’d love to see either of those guys suit up in the wine and gold
Why on earth would Memphis trade Gasol and Gay for O’neal?
Camby is staying put. At least that’s what LA has shown. Kaman isn’t that good guys. Plus, Detroit can offer a better package as far as talent. Shaq was brought her to defend Dwight and he’s the best big available to do that. Has anyone watch Bosh against Dwight? Howard OWNS Bosh.
Some guys we should be talking about trying to get is Shane Battier, Tayshaun Prince, Rip Hamilton, Boris Diaw, Rudy Gay, Troy Murphy and Martell Webster.(No Boozer and S-Jax aren’t really options). Guys like Josh Howard and David West are outside shots but you never know I guess. I’ve looked over all their contracts and we have deals that we could make, money wise, to get these guys.
Rip, Battier, Diaw and Tayshaun are my preferred choices. I just don’t think we have a chance to get Gay unless Memphis gets desperate, but it looks like they might contend now.
Man, I really hate to be the grammar/spelling/whatever nazi, but it drives me nuts… and right there in the big bold headline…
It’s “quarter pole.” From horse racing. No surveys or polling involved. =-)
@S-Dub
I would take Boris Diaw in a second. Him or Battier. I love both of their games and i think either would fit perfectly in a lineup with LeBron AND Shaq
@JJ: I don’t think Battier will actually get traded unless they tank. BUT, Diaw is a guy I LOVE, and he is actually becoming the odd man out with the Bobcats. He makes $9M/yr for teh next 2 years after this. It’s not a bad contract for a guy who does everything. Obviously, Z would get the deal done. I could see them asking us to take Diop, whose deal is TERRIBLE and then we’d have to include Delonte.
Guys, Rudy Gay is nowhere near consistently good, and he wants $12M per, which is more laughable than the amount of money Indiana gave Danny Granger.
What’s tragic is Ben Wallace looks reborn this year.
[…] team is made for one thing, and one thing only – June’ camp, and those in the ‘Shaq is dunzo‘ camp. The debate between these two sides can be as heated as those surrounding the Browns. […]
Ok so i just did some tinkering around on ESPN’s trade machine and heres what i came up with. It would be a 3 way trade with Cleveland, New Orleans, and Toronto. Cleveland would send Shaq to the Hornets, The Hornets would send David West and Emeka Okafor to Toronto and James Posey to Cleveland, and Toronto sends Chris Bosh to Cleveland and Demar Derozan to New Orleans. So Cleveland would get Bosh and Posey, NO would get Shaq and Derozan, and Toronto would get West and Okafor. Although Cleveland would have to take on the very Ugly contract of Posey, we would be getting Bosh and we would have his Bird rights and would win multiple championships. While NO would be getting Derozan in the deal their only motivation for a deal like this would be a major major Salary dump getting rid of the awful contracts of Posey and Okafor. Toronto would do this only if they thought that they had absolutely no chance whatsoever of retaining Bosh, they would get some good talent in return for Bosh and they could be a very talented young team. The entire trade would rest upon how urgent NO would be to absolutely dump there salaries.
[…] good enough to make the Cavaliers that much better? The answer so far has been no. I wrote at the quarter poll that I thought O’Neal was finished, but as many commenters pointed out, his true value […]
I don’t think it’s fair to say he’s completely done. He gets about 10 touches a game. Give him the ball more and he’ll boost that average up. Also, HE’S 38 YEARS OLD. What the hell did all of you expect? Just because he was claimed to be “rejuvinated” by the Phoenix training staff doesn’t mean anything when you send him to blistery cold Cleveland. Here’s what needs to happen.
1. Don’t trade Shaq
2. Get him the ball more while he’s on the court.
3. Don’t tire him out. Keep him in for just a few minutes.
[…] jumped at the chance to talk about The Big Fella. Yes, I am the same guy who wrote on December 10th Shaq looks finished. I’d like to amend my […]