A tradition like every other: While We’re Waiting
November 21, 2016Cleveland Browns Week 11 Winners and Losers
November 21, 2016When a team has lost their first 11 games of the season, many factors can be at the root. Whether it’s the coaching, talent on the field, or a number of other variables, there has been plenty that has gone into the Cleveland Browns’ 0-11 record, one which could possibly go a perfect (or imperfect?) 0-16 this season.
Following their loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers, who are not much of a rival at this point because of the way the they have dominated the Browns over the years, two of the best leaders on the team — left tackle Joe Thomas and wide receiver Terrelle Pryor — opened up about the struggling offensive line. So far this season, the majority of the players, at least the ones who have spoken to the media, have tried their best to remain positive, but it seems as though they just can’t hold back anymore. Thomas, who will go down as one of the best players to ever put on the orange and brown jersey, knows that outside of him, the offensive line is troublesome, to say the least. Why so, you ask? He blames the front office’s moves (or lack their of) last off-season, per cleveland.com’s Mary Kay Cabot.
“Well, we lost a couple really good players, I think the best at their position. But that was our strategy in the offseason. That’s what we decided to do. You’ve got to lie in the bed that you’ve made, and I don’t make the decisions on who comes and goes. So that’s not something that I can concern myself with. For me, it’s all about trying to do my job to the best of my ability and do everything I can to help our team win, and the guys that are making the personnel decisions, they’re the experts on that, so they’re the ones that have to make those decisions and look at those decisions when they’re made.”
Which two lineman is he speaking of? Center Alex Mack (signed with the Atlanta Falcons) and right tackle Mitchell Schwartz (signed with the Kansas City Chiefs). While Mack going elsewhere due to money is somewhat understandable, there is no excuse that would make sense for not bringing back Schwartz, especially with all of the cap room the Browns have. There’s a reason why the Browns have used six quarterbacks this season as offensive line has played so poorly at times that the quarterbacks have been given such little time. While a player like Schwartz is just a single player, he and Thomas would have been solid bookends on the offense’s front line.
Not only are the Browns averaging a league-worst 16.7 points per game, but the offense has struggled both running and passing the ball. At this point, everyone around the NFL seems to have taken notice of the Browns struggles, and so have their own players. Following Sunday’s loss, Pryor even admitted the quarterbacks are getting hit hard because of the struggling offensive line.
Here’s more from Cabot:
“I hate it. We have players that want to do great, but every time our quarterback drops back, Josh McCown, how much time he puts in it, and Cody Kessler), they can’t keep getting hit like that. I don’t care. They can’t keep getting hit like that, and if I want to voice my opinion, I’m going to voice my opinion now, because it’s going on too much. I don’t care if you’ve got to hold these dudes. Hold them and take the damn penalty and stop getting our quarterbacks hit. I hate that. I don’t like it.”
How bad is it? He even stated that a quarterback wouldn’t come to Cleveland even if he was way overpaid to come to the Browns.
“I don’t think somebody would take $10 million to sit back there and take those hits. C’mon, some of those hits Josh took? After one of those, I came over and his chinstrap was like this over his neck. He has a cut right here. It’s bullcrap. We can’t keep doing this and we can’t keep getting our guys hit. It’s as simple as that.”
With just five games remaining in the season, No. 11 knows that there’s not much that can’t be done right now, but he feels bad for whoever has to line up behind center.
“I don’t know. We’ll have to talk to our management and that’s a question for them, but we can’t keep getting these guys hit. I’m tired of our guys getting hit. I’m nobody to complain because I don’t run it, but it’s personal to me because I care for those guys and I don’t like seeing them get hit like that. Point blank, period. Somebody’s got to say it.”
Thomas and Pryor, who are the team’s two best players, have made their voices heard. Now, will any other players join them moving forward?
This coming week and the weeks following will be interesting to see how the front office reacts (and hopefully listens) to its players, if they even care at all.
90 Comments
Oh, then yeah, bust city.
let’s find out … they got nothing to lose by trotting S.Coleman out there … or Jonathan Cooper (if healthy) , he’s supposed to be good , right ?
– thomas , drango , greco , pasztor . s.coleman ?
– thomas , drango , greco , j.cooper , pasztor ?
– thomas , drango , greco , bailey , pasztor ?
– thomas , drango , greco , j.cooper , s.coleman ?
– thaomas , drango , greco , bailey , s.coleman ?
any combination that does NOT include erving works for me.
… put Coleman in there & let’s find out.
“We have the best right tackle and the best center in the NFL and I’d certainly like to keep those guys. You’re not going to make your team better by getting a worse player at those positions.”
JT – Feb 14, 2016
“Meh, what does he know. He didn’t go to Harvard.”
SB – Feb 15, 2016
never saw that. Obviously, Mack was already determined to be gone, but that certainly was a plea about Schwartz.
Yeah…Erving should be sent home for the season/future.
Criticism of analytics: “they disagree with what I think therefore they are wrong, but I’m not only going to say they are wrong without demonstrating how” Just as grrrreat.
Tis the season
Construction can start right after the parade……
https://twitter.com/GRRustlers/status/800468173992656896
Stats don’t pay the bills. Wins do.
But, if compiling and analyzing useless stats makes you happy. Enjoy.
This is really the problem – a complete misunderstanding of what analytics are attempting to do, and painting them all with the same brush.
Good analytics, and there are plenty of them out there, attempt to figure out what best contributes to that fancy wins stat. They take a deep dive into how predictive certain things are, and how closely they tie to winning games. The criticism of analytics not being focused on wins is ludicrous.
Now, there are things like measures of how many curveballs are thrown in Tuesday day games, that are not attempts to figure out how things contribute to wins. A lot are bits of trivia, some are genuinely bad analytics. But I rarely see any criticism of attempts at good analytics that goes past something like “well I disagree, so therefore it’s dumb”.
If you want to demonstrate where PFF’s o-line rankings are wrong, or what they miss, or how they don’t measure anything that leads to wins, I’m all ears, because you certainly may be right. But it seems like you just want to throw darts at the entire arena of “analytics”, including many things completely unrelated to PFF’s o-line rankings.
Hell… does Baltimore need another team? We need another break from this football stuff.
You raise an issue that has been discussed here before: Is Joe Thomas a team leader?
The argument for “yes”: he just comes in and does his job without creating any distractions. No moaning. No contract drama. He leads by example. Plus, he went fishing with his dad on draft day! And, of course, he’s really, really good. Like, really good.
My cynical argument for “no”: Joe Thomas just comes in and does his job even tough everything else is falling apart around him. He does not moan because none of this really affects him personally. To wit, there’s no contract drama with him because he’s one of the few guys the team actually pays. He leads by example, happily taking free days off during training camp, even as the new coach preaches “earning playing time” to a roster of rookies. He does not create on-field distractions. He will never retaliate after his quarterback takes a late hit or cheap shot. You don’t have to worry about seeing a highlight of him punching James Harrison. He also does not create off-field distractions. This may surprise you. As the one guy in the locker room with job security, you might expect him to speak up for his teammates. You might expect him to advocate for his line-mates when they hit free agency. But, no. He does not create drama. He doesn’t have to do any of that stuff because, of course, he’s really, really good. Like, really good.
(Also – going fishing with your dad instead of New York to be drafted is the most Midwesty way to show everyone that you’re the kind of guy who doesn’t make show.)
I believe Seattle’s o-line is both cheap and inexperienced. They started out this season badly; but now seem to have gotten better; they’re even thriving!
I have been looking to see some improvement! There hasn’t been any on the o-line…
Has there been noticeable improvements in any of the other position groups from the first game until now?
More from the interview, for context.
“I understand from their perspective, from a business standpoint they need to move on if they get a better offer somewhere else. I certainly would understand it but I definitely hope that they’re back. I feel like we have a lot of salary cap space to spend on it. I don’t know that for sure. I’m not in the salary cap meetings but I’d certainly like to keep them.”
“I think we have the best right tackle and the best center in the NFL and I’d certainly like to keep those guys. You’re not going to make your team better by getting a worse player at those positions.”
On the Khrushchev scale, these comments rank closer to:
http://i.imgur.com/QAUajU6.jpg
than:
http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2008/un_moments/un_moments_khrushchev.jpg
right, and if he was a blowhard looking for reporters, a football Chris Perez, I’d be the first telling him to just shut his jock face and do his own job.
I’ll own the hypocrisy. Just desperate for someone to call b.s. on the HBT kids with their G.M. Starter Kit Software. Hard to find another credible voice in the org, one with the job security to call it.
(actually, I worry that the issue is not analytics – which I believe in – at all. It’s the absence of football knowledge that they are supposed to combine with it, and the lunacy of the owner not insisting that that a competent, experienced football guy be part of the decision-making structure. If he tries to add Football Guy this off-season, well, there’s a hundred ways the whole thing can go sideways).
What I see:
D-linemen: worse as season progresses (zero pressure last few games, but also can’t stop run)
LBs: Collins making plays, no one has improved
Safeties: same (worst in league?)
Corners: Boddy-Calhoun is an upgrade over Williams or Taylor, IMO
O-line: league worst even with Thomas, was better when Erving was hurt and out
RBs: getting worse after early success against bad run defenses.
Receivers: there’s Pryor and there’s Pryor. No rooks stepping up despite playing opportunity.
TEs: Barnidge has been playing better than early in season
QBs: marked deterioration. Sure, they are not blameless but the FO choice on Schwartz and its whiff on Shon Coleman has hung these guys out like human pinatas.
It’s not like this is the first time that’s happened to a promising Browns QB. Remember that guy who used to wear the #2 jersey? Who got stuck behind a terrible offensive line, and was beaten up so badly he basically couldn’t play anymore?
Yes, in essence the Money Ball approach has reduced the Browns to expansion-level talent. Only, whereas the expansion teams at least had that as an excuse, this front office has willfully chosen to devalue offensive line talent (as Joe Thomas said, they value from the outside in). There are consequences to building a team under these principles, and now the chickens are coming home to roost.
The Wheatfield changed hands 7 times, implying that the Union troops held a lead at least 3 times. The Browns can’t claim as much.
Stupid HBT let them access their free-will processor chips.
haha, I was hoping a Gettysburg reference would be the right kind of olive branch to lure you back in
None needed. I have no enmity for anyone.
The Browns have been turned over lock, stock and barrel to the geekometrics disciples.
The proof will be in the puddling.
Just saw this. Couldn’t agree more. Bode had the keys to both Mack’s and Schwartz’s shackles, and he let them walk. They would be in chains right now and working for us if it wasn’t for Bode. In short, it is all Bode’s fault (and the 13th amendment to the Constitution).
“The South shall live again!”
Apropos of nothing…just thought you’d enjoy a Simpsons civil war reference.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e71bcebf1bd384e51b6e6ff03634cb886cfbc3ca24fdeef2e642cc19f1d88c07.png
That sounds funny. Until you live down here…
I couldn’t find the therapy section on this blog for some reason, but I wanted to post a video and my suggestion that fans of the Cleveland Oranges listen to it during the next game and mute their televisions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHSRv4Hsxn0&t=606s
Nice! The shows writers used Apu to great effect in making Civil War references
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The whole goal of the HBT Analytics package is so that you can set the Tesla to auto-pilot for the draft and the personnel people can spend the weekend golfing.
D-Linemen – agree, but I think Shelton has done reasonably well this season. Nassib is miscast as a 3-4 DE and should be an OLB. Meder just isn’t good enough to be an every down player. Nice rotation guy and that’s all. Sure missing Desmond Bryant.
LB’s: I’m hopeful for Ogbah to improve, (he’s shown flashes) but Collins has illuminated how bad the others are. I think they should move him inside and sit Davis down, and put Nassib back on the outside. (If only they had another decent DE)
Safeties: Agreed – awful. *spits on ground*
Corners: Agreed, and Boddy-Calhoun isn’t even that great. Might develop into a useful CB3 though. Going to have to draft somebody high here.
O-line: Partially disagree. They’re awful now, yes, but they were pretty good run blockers until Bitonio got hurt. I think they looked better without Erving mostly because Grecco next to Bitonio made a great left side. Grecco is exposed at RG without Mack beside him. Get Bitonio back and fix RT and I think they’re at least average, if not above. I’m very concerned about Erving, but haven’t made up my mind just yet.
RB’s: Disagree. I think they’re adequate at least. Can’t run without commitment to run. Can’t commit to run without Bitonio. Duke Johnson is more interesting to me than Crowell, though.
WR’s: I think Coleman is going to be fine. He just needs a QB who can throw it over a CB’s head.
TE’s: agreed
QB’s: Kessler has learning to do and already shows pretty decent reads, but I’m not convinced he has an NFL arm. Also, I haven’t seen great pocket awareness from either him or McCown. There were a couple of hits and sacks he could have avoided on Sunday if he had been aware of the pressure and stepped forward instead of running out of the pocket. I’d like to see more RG3 before the season is done.
Yep, that’s pretty much what I have noticed – no noticeable improvement in any position group; at least as seen from a fan watching on TV.
I think we have to assume that Hue Jackson and most of his coaches know how to coach; many have had success with other teams and are respected around the league.
If that assumption is true, then the primary issue is the quality of the players drafted and selected for the roster. And since many of them are first year players, we have to simply be patient; and wait for them to learn and mature – either into NFL players of busts.
As frustrating as this is for us fans, who have been through the “wash, rinse, repeat” cycle about 10 times now, it’s too early to judge anybody in the current batch of front office/coaches.
99% of sports teams front offices have a serious analytics department, which is enough proof as to whats in the pudding.
Give it up, chief.
Your geekometric eggheads who are in COMPLETE are 0-12.
What part of ZERO wins does not compute with you?
Eat that pudding, buddy.
Stick to fantasy football.
They are also in complete control of any and every team in pro sports. The battle is over. The guys that you can’t do anything more than call names have already won long ago.
Sorry, but the Browns are the only team NFL managed exclusively by geekometric disciples.
And they are creating a historically bad team team.
Your inability to do anything besides hurl insults demonstrates you have no idea what level each team, even the Browns, uses analytics. Great chat. Keep up the ludditing.
0-12, baby. Oh And Twelve.