I’ll never get over it. Never.
November 4, 2016Shuck the Cornhuskers: Ohio State – Nebraska Preview
November 4, 2016Hey, so we’ll get back to our regularly scheduled discussions on the Cleveland Browns soon enough. With Cody Kessler back starting at quarterback and Corey Coleman receiving from him for the first time in live action, there will be lots of meat in those talks. But, there’s this little thing of the Cleveland Indians in the World Series for the first time in 19 seasons that needs some thoughts on before we can lay it to bed.
So, here’s to a final week of ignoring the Browns to focus on the greatest World Series of all-time (well, almost for Clevelanders). And, MLB really should rig the postseason to get the Indians in the World Series more often given that the last two times we participated, the thing went seven games and into extra innings.
Here we go:
Outside the chalked lines
What was the defining narrative of the 2016 World Series?
Craig: I’m trying really hard to not let the 2016 Indians playoff run be defined by anything other than overcoming the odds. I know they lost to the best team in baseball at the end of it all, but they just endured so much and made their run to the Series look so damn easy. Just keep in mind that the most “CURSED” moment of the playoffs was Trevor Bauer’s bleeding finger and that’s a game that this team WON. The Indians won 4-2 over the Toronto Blue Jays as six Indians relievers combined to get a record 25 outs in “relief.”
Joe: Like the 2015 Cleveland Cavaliers, I believe the narrative will be what could have been and what it will be next season. The Indians suffered so many injuries, but they still were one game away from being World Champions. This team showed so much toughness and has really gotten me excited for next season.
Michael: Just another time the Cleveland Indians completely revolutionized baseball. The 1990s are remembered more for PEDs, but the Indians were building DiamondView with Paul DePodesta and a slew of other front office types. The Indians started the analytics revolution in baseball that Moneyball popularized. Now, with this postseason run, the Indians killed off the closer and advanced the usage of relievers.
Josh: Heart, guts, and never giving up on themselves. Yes, the Indians held a 3-1 lead in the series. But, they were big-time underdogs against the Cubs, who were the best team in the league at regular season’s end. After Chicago was able to tie the series at 3-3 and then take a 6-3 lead late in Game 7, Cleveland could have easily just given up, packed their bags, and began their off-season. But, they didn’t. In fact, that tied things up at 6-6 and forced extra innings. Also, don’t forget the injuries. The Indians were just a run (or two) away from winning the World Series without two of their top three starting pitchers and arguably their best offensive player, at least prior to the season. There’s a reason why many Indians fans have had so many positive things to say about this group. They love to be together. Although they lost, that game and this entire season will be one that many never forget.
Scott: It has to be triumph, right? Triumph over injuries and weather and scheduling and large payrolls… It seems like forever ago, but this was a team that had their Opening Day canceled because of snow only to fake the entire situation and attempt to get fans just as excited a day later. For that to culminate in the World Series to only have them run out of gas against a 103-win franchise—it’s all eerily similar to what the Cavaliers did in 2015 with an IV-laden Matthew Dellavedova playing 45 minutes a night alongside a 30-plus-year-old LeBron James, falling just short against a fully healthy, dominant franchise in Golden State. Fans were certainly disappointed in that outcome, but no one was disappointed in the journey. That’s triumph.
Pat: No matter the result, everyone can be happy for the winner. Certainly there are a handful of people in this world who have a real disdain for either the Indians or the Cubs, but I think the vast majority of the country was going to be happy for the winning fan base. The two teams with the longest championship droughts were going head to head for the title, and I truly believe the winner would have been celebrated by the masses. Yes, even Joe Buck, assuming he actually feels the emotions his mouth portends.
Dave: This is a tough one. The national narrative was OMGCUBS, but locally we knew this team had magic. The way we waltzed through the first 2 rounds was magical, and the way the series started was magical, and the way it even ended was magical, there was just not quite enough magic to get it done.
Was there an under-discussed subplot that you believe should have gotten more attention?
Craig: I will always think it’s Corey Kluber. He’s so understated as a human being and he plays in an understated baseball market, but Corey Kluber is never talked about enough considering what he’s done in his career. The fact that he started three games in nine days is so phenomenal, regardless of a few runs in Game 7.
Joe: I think the subplot of the managers was underplayed. Terry Francona versus Joe Maddon was such an interesting matchup. Both managers are quirky player managers, who have done things in innovative ways that will change the game going forward. It was interesting to watch.
Michael: Perhaps the subplot that should have gotten more attention was that the Indians were even IN the World Series. There were so many fantastic storylines about this season with the Tribe, but the broadcasters were so incredibly lazy that they never bothered to dive into any of them. If only Vin Scully would have been called upon for the World Series call of his last year in MLB.
Josh: Kyle Schwarber returning from a torn ACL to be the Cubs’ DH. Ha, you know I’m joking. But seriously, like Scott, it has to be Mike Napoli. He all but disappeared for the majority of the playoffs, especially in the World Series. While I will never question anything that Terry Francona does (or doesn’t) do after he was able to get this team on the brink of a championship, keeping Nap in the cleanup spot even though he was in such a big slump was questionable. There were plenty of times where the power-hitter could have began one heck of a party, but either struck out while trying to swing for the fences or grounded out. It will be interesting to see how much money he gets this off-season from a team, and if that team will be the Indians.
Scott: I want to say outfield defense, but I have a feeling that will be a big discussion this winter. Alas, I’ll opt for how bad Mike Napoli was throughout the entire postseason on both sides of the game. his 0-for-5 night at the plate in Game 7 was the only thing that overshadowed his near destruction of what should have been an easy 3-6-3 double play in what ended up being a run-scoring inning for the Cubs. The guy was a huge addition to the Indians, was a feel-good story of epic proportions, and was a large reason they won as many games as they did, but his collapse in the playoffs shouldn’t be ignored.
Pat: For me, it’s what the subject of what the Indians didn’t have. For all of the cooing over the return of Kyle Schwarber, I don’t remember much more than a dismissive comment about the injuries to Michael Brantley, Carlos Carrasco, and Danny Salazar. That was a gigantic hurdle for the Indians to overcome, and the fact that they did so easily through the ALDS and ALCS should have gotten more attention. At least give us a montage or something!
Dave: I don’t want to question Tito, because he is for sure smarter than me. But the decision to go with guys on short rest rather than trying Ryan Merritt has to be examined. It could have gone horribly wrong, I know, but there are always questions.
Neither the World Series nor Game 7 seems to have an easily identifiable goat to blame on the Indians. Is there a parallel championship where there was not a Jose Mesa or Earnest Byner? Is it possible even in the instant reaction world of 2016 that no one player will shoulder a disproportionate share of the blame?
Craig: Usually the lack of a goat would lend to a series like the Cavaliers had against the Spurs where total domination occurred. This might be the first time in Cleveland history where I don’t feel like there was a choke, goat, or other factor to blame directly.
Joe: The lack of a goat is possible because of how well played the series was by both teams. The series was close with no team really dominating for an extended period of time. Both teams played their butts off.
Michael: One of the biggest blessings of the 2016 World Series is the lack of unfair blame attached to any one player. The Indians run was just too incredible. Outside of Naquin’s defensive meltdown in Game 6, who gets the blame? And, even Naquin’s misplay was in a route that one play did not serve the deciding factor. Davis messed up a play in Game 7, but more than made up for it with a tying blast in the eighth. Just a fun, tense series between evenly matched teams. One team had to make the play at the end, the Cubs did.
Josh: Although I know what Byner and Mesa did, I wasn’t even born yet for the former and was just six years old for the latter (and don’t remember it outside of it being talked about and pictures). So, with that being said, I don’t know how it felt for either of those. Obviously, I can imagine how each felt, but imagining and actually feeling something are completely different. With that being said, there was no one player to blame in this World Series. The Indians just didn’t have enough to beat a 103-win Cubs team that had such a larger payroll. Even so, I am so damn proud of this 2016 Indians’ squad. They had fun together all while winning plenty of games. Is it basebal season yet?
Scott: The complete lack of a “The” in this series tells you everything you need to know about how high Indians fans’ chins should be the morning after. It was just a hard-fought series from front to back. There was a lot of misguided Trevor Bauer hate early on, but he shut that down with fervor during Game 7. There were a lot of mental mistakes across the board, but if any one player gets the blame, it’d be Tyler Naquin for how badly he messed up in the field and at the plate in Game 6. You could easily argue that the outcome wouldn’t have been different, but his missteps were so glaring and in such high leverage situations, that he’s the only player I’d entertain as the goat.
Pat: I think if time is going to designate one player on the Indians as the goat, it will be Tyler Naquin. His inability to hit and his blunder in the field will probably stick in the mind of Indians fans for a long time. However, I don’t think it would ever be at the level of Jose Mesa or Earnest Byner. So in that respect, I think this World Series will be more like the 1995 edition. I don’t remember any players in that series who were deserving of the ire of the fan base, but then again that could be because it was 21 years ago and I just don’t remember.
Dave: As Scott said, there was no “The” in this series. Tyler Naquin had a bad game 6, but some might say Marlon Byrd and Abraham Almonte were the ones who put us in the position to start such a youngster. The analogy to the 2015 Cavs will be made 1000 times, but I think it is true. This team gave everything it had, there just wasn’t quite enough.
Have you seen my baseball
Given a gassed Corey Kluber and Andrew Miller, there was not much that manager Terry Francona could do in Game 7. But, there were a bunch of questionable decisions (especially with hindsight). Which managerial choice would you most like to change if you could?
Craig: I would have had Bauer warm up and pitch straight up out of the rain delay. I know it wasn’t a super long delay, but it seemed to me that to begin again after 25 minutes was quite the ask of a reliever. Even if it had worked out, I’d like to think if given this question directly I’d come to the same answer every time.
Joe: The managerial change I would like to change was keeping Corey Kluber in to start the fifth in Game 7. It was obvious that Kluber just did not have it. So, putting him out there in the fifth was the wrong move and it cost them when Javier Baez hit a leadoff home run to extend the lead to 4-1.
Michael: Putting Shaw back on the mound after the rain delay hurt the most, and it followed the Francona pattern of pulling pitchers later than he should have throughout Game 7. He had such a magical touch through the postseason, but the ice cream must have turned before this game.
Josh: Continuing to put Mike Napoli in the cleanup spot even when he was struggled immensely, keeping Bryan Shaw on the mound following the rain delay, and the situation that led to Michael Martinez having to bat. Yes, hindsight is 20-20, but I’m sure Tito is questioning himself on these and more after being so close to a championship.
Scott: Hindsight would have had Rajai Davis in center for Game 6, but if we’re talking Game 7, it’s putting Bryan Shaw back on the bump after the rain delay. That was brutal.
Pat: Keeping Corey Kluber in the game at the start of the fifth inning was the big one for me. I thought everyone in the world could tell that Kluber didn’t have his best stuff and had been lucky to survive even that long. His pitching wasn’t going to be magically sharper. Tito seemed to push the right button throughout most of the playoffs, but that one was a real head scratcher.
Dave: Probably leaving an already shaken Tyler Naquin in to bat with 2 outs and the bases loaded in game 6. The poor kid had no chance.
Name a player you think elevated himself during the Indians postseason run and another that you think might have exposed himself as flawed projecting into future seasons.
Craig: Tyler Naquin was exposed in the playoffs. It doesn’t mean he can’t or won’t adjust, but he must do so. Ryan Merritt has to be the choice for a player who elevated himself. He might just be a flash-in-the-pan Jeremy Sowers, destined to be a footnote for only the most massive Tribe fans on earth, but he’s got a legacy now. That’s something.
Joe: I think Roberto Perez elevated himself by the way he handled the pitchers and his defense. He showed how valuable he was for the pitching staff and for the defense. Tyler Naquin exposed himself this postseason, showing that he is has a big hole in his batting and fielding. He now looks like just a fourth outfielder.
Michael: Francisco Lindor shot himself from known star amongst Indians fans to legit nationally known star. He was the player who Cubs fans pointed to and were just in awe about even after their victory. His play, the way he carries himself, everything. Just a wonderful package. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for Mike Napoli whose issues at the plate were exposed as he went into a prolonged slump.
Josh: I know you said player, but I will name a hitter and batter for each. Frankie Lindor and Andrew Miller both were spectacular in the postseason. Yes, they were already among the best at their respective positions prior to the playoffs, but they secured that spot after their perfomances in October (and November). Exposed? Easily Tyler Naquin and a pitcher that was exposed is hard to say. Although Naquin had one hell of a rookie season, the Cubs showed how to beat him. At the plate, he couldn’t hit a fastball (especially a high fastball) whatsoever and in the field, he had plenty of mental mistakes and looked like he was scared, both at the plate and in the field. But then again, Naquin was one of the worst defensive outfielders during the regular season as well.
Scott: Elevated? Can we say Andrew Miller? Guy was filthy during the regular season, but took it to an entire new level from October on. Flawed? Easily Tyler Naquin. Kid had a solid rookie season, but he finished the regular season among the worst defensive center fielders in the game, botched Game 6 from the first pitch on, and can’t hit a fastball. The Indians managed to get to the World Series with a less-than-stellar outfield—which is amazing in many ways—but it’s an area that has to be addressed more than just hoping Michael Brantley comes back.
Pat: I would say that Michael Martinez was exposed, but I thought that had already happened. Somehow, he kept finding his way back onto the roster and into Terry Francona’s good graces. Even though he didn’t seem to have quite the effectiveness down the stretch, the guy who stood out to me throughout the whole playoffs was Francisco Lindor. His passion, technical proficiency, and power were all on display in these playoff games. It was a wonder to behold, and I’m sure it made the country stand up and pay attention.
Dave: With all of the talk about Andrew Miller (which was deserved) Cody Allen was downright masterful. 7 2/3 scoreless innings throughout the playoffs. As far as flaws, it was unfortunate how bad Mike Napoli was during the playoffs.
Are the 2016 Cleveland Indians a true embodiment of the 2014-2015 Cleveland Cavaliers? Will they be back in 2017 to defeat the Chicago Cubs in a rematch to parallel the Cavs championship run?
Craig: Baseball is such a different sport to try and predict compared to the NBA, but here’s the one parallel I’m hanging onto. The Cavaliers have LeBron James and it’s impossible to have one player dominate like that in baseball. However, between Corey Kluber and Francisco Lindor, I think the Indians have two stars that will always give you faith that a deep playoff run is possible, if not likely. Add in Jose Ramirez and a returning Michael Brantley, and you start to dream about the possibilities.
Joe: I think so. The parallels are very similar, including the injuries and how close the team was to winning it all without their full complement of players. I think the Indians will return to win the 2017 World Series over the Chicago Cubs.
Michael: Because Baseball it is impossible to know. The Atlanta Braves looked to have the best youthful and loaded team with the Uptons and Heyward in their outfield. Instead, they cratered. The fickle nature of the sport does not lend itself well to guarantees. Yet, with the extended contracts of the rotation into 2020 (and Andrew Miller and Cody Allen) alongside the position players for at least the next couple years, the Indians should be as poised as any to continue their success.
Josh: Yes. If healthy – as in Brantley, Cookie, and Salazar are all in the lineup and rotation – it’s a complete different outcome, at least that’s my own opinion. Although I’d love to say that they will now win the 2017 World Series to follow suit with the Cavs, unlike the NBA, the MLB is so hard to predict. Playoff teams are rarely ever picked perfectly correct, let alone who will make (and win) the World Series.
Scott: Hey, that’s my line. You could very well say the embodiment is there, but baseball has so many more variables than an NBA season could provide. It’ll be tough to repeat, but you can assume that a rematch will be on a lot of preseason forecasts assuming the Tribe fills all of the necessary holes this winter.
Pat: I don’t think the two teams are much alike at all. Entering the playoffs with depleted numbers, the Indians were far from a favorite. Yes, the Warriors were the team that finished the regular season with 73 wins, but before the season began the Cavs were favored to win the title. Everyone projected that the Cavs and Warriors would face off in the Finals last season, but nobody thought the Indians had a chance once the playoffs started. I’d like to say they will be back again next year with healthy versions of Michael Brantely, Carlos Carrasco, and Danny Salazar, but you just don’t know what the future will hold. Back in 2010, most of the world believed that the Oklahoma City Thunder were destined to win a championship before Durant’s time there was over. The Indians may be at the beginning of a dynasty, or they may fizzle out tragically. Obviously, I’ll be hoping and praying for the latter.
Dave: Baseball is tougher to predict than basketball, but with any luck they will be back. If our rotation can stay healthy we will win a lot of damn games.
8 Comments
I’ll disagree with Joe in that I don’t think this Series was well played at all. Lots of errors, some of them really silly, and some lousy base-running (I’ll guess that the Cubs pitchers set a WS record for number of runners picked off).
The turning point was our inability to score in Game 5. According to SI, we had the tying run on base for seven plate appearances over the final four innings, but we couldn’t get any clutch hits to move them up or bring them in. To me, that will always be this year’s Jose Mesa moment.
Finally, Joe Maddon flat-out panicked in Games 6 and 7 and was lucky enough to survive it. His pitching decisions were horrendous, and if the Tribe had been able to pull it out, his effigy would be hanging all over Wrigleyville.
it was weird, Maddon made iffy lineup decisions before Game 6 and 7 when he cleaned those up but then made strange pitching decisions. both Joe & Tito seemed attempting to outduel their counterpart the entire time though – the two best managers in the game going toe-to-toe.
Michael, after this, I can’t consider Maddon one of the best managers in the game. I don’t know what he did or didn’t do before the Series because I don’t follow them, but he was outrageously bad on Tuesday and Wednesday. Highly over-rated in my book.
Guys really got on Naq. Yeah, he had some blunders, and his bat went silent, but he’s a damn rookie (and not like a superstar, highly touted one at that)…in the World Series! I wouldn’t have expected him to be as cool as Klubes. Hell, even time tested Davis messed up a couple times.
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I agree with Dave. Up 3-1, take a shot with Merritt and give guys a rest so you can give it all the last 2 games. We basically tried hard all three but ran out of gas. I was hoping it was not going to happen but I could see writing on the wall throughout the playoffs.
Without naq this season, I doubt we end up where we did.
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