Was Sandy Alomar Jr. overrated or underrated? Depends on who you ask.
July 16, 2015Next Up: The Second Half Begins in Cincinnati
July 17, 2015
Happiest of happy Fridays to you WFNY crew. Here’s your weekly dose of WWW me.
Things have changed, but the Indians’ unpopular tone remains
The very first answer to one of Marla Ridenour’s questions had me doing a Q*Bert impression in my house. That’s all it took for me to once again be reminded of how tired I am of the way the Indians front office talks about my favorite baseball team.
We know what we need. There’s what we need in a perfect environment where we can build the perfect team in any way we want and then there’s realities. Every team has different thresholds. There’s a budget we have to operate within.
Probably every fan is less patient than every front-office person, but believe me, we have the impatience, we just don’t act on the impatience. We’ve got the frustration, we’ve got the emotion. But the game by nature rewards patience. When you look at great players, you’ve got to ride out some rough patches early in their careers.
If you know what you need, then it’s up to you to get it. One way or another, that is your job. You’ve accepted that gig with the Cleveland Indians and failure to get those things that you need is a failure at doing your job. Everything else comes off like an excuse. Now, maybe that’s not what Shapiro meant to say. May I recommend a change in tone?
Let me back up a little bit because I’ve been thinking about this a TON over the past few days. I’m angry and I don’t want this to come off like a fire-spitting hot take that accomplishes nothing more than catharsis. I don’t want to just blindly demand that everyone gets fired for the sake of getting fired. I really want to explore how we got here, because I do think the relationship between fans and management has changed drastically over time with the movements of players around the league and around the Indians. Also I’m not really talking about attendance. I just want to focus on the message and demeanor of the Indians’ communications with fans.
I used to be in favor of this “honest” kind of talk with the Cleveland Indians. I thought it was refreshing when I was living on the East Coast and it made me feel better as a displaced Indians fan. It made me feel like I had a moral superiority. It made me feel at least a tiny bit better after the Indians had Manny Ramirez ripped away from my beloved franchise. That was when it felt like the unfairness of MLB was a criminal stealing something from us in the middle of the night. Do you remember those days when Manny was negotiating live on ESPN? That’s when some of my anti-ESPN bias started too by the way. I didn’t understand why they would choose “entertainment” over crushing the soul of one of the MLB fan bases. Look how far we’ve come since then.
Then things started to change slowly but surely. The Indians again were “victimized” by the cruel realities of markets when they bid for Jim Thome and lost him. We all hung in there together mocking Jim and saying “Damn you!” to those rotten Phillies who wouldn’t even be able to use our beloved bomber at DH. We were still all in it together. The fans and front office were still on the same page, although you got a sense that some of the foundation was cracking a bit.
Then the Indians started trading away stars and it felt less like it was happening to us – the Indians organization and its fans – and more like it was being perpetrated against the fans by the organization.
CC Sabathia gets traded and there’s some understanding. Cliff Lee goes and there’s a little bit less understanding. Victor Martinez goes and now I’m just kind of seething and I think many fans are with me. Now there’s a directive from at least some portion of fans to management that says, “This better work, OR ELSE.” It cemented the “us vs. them” within Cleveland that I don’t think was there prior. Sure there are still defenders who are still on honesty island, but a whole lot more fans have jumped in their boats and started rowing in any other direction.
Through it all, Mark Shapiro and management haven’t really changed their tone. They keep talking about the “realities” when it comes to our baseball team and the market we operate in collectively. Except now, I don’t feel like there’s much of an “us” mentality between the fans – or at least not the same supermajority of fans – that existed way back when Manny and Thome were “stolen” from our city. Count me among those that is sick to death of hearing about “reality” when it comes to my baseball team.
I don’t want to hear it anymore. I want a good team and I want a general manager and President who can bring me back on board the same team. Tell me the Tigers are built completely inefficiently. Tell me you built a team that should be able to challenge for the World Series right now. Tell me you’re hoping this new MLB commissioner does something – anything – to expand profit-sharing. Tell me something that brings me back on your side. The Indians stopped trying to sell me and the rest of the fans, because they got so comfortable making excuses and having us lap it up. They seem to have failed to notice that the message ain’t working anymore.
The more I think about it, the more I think this has very little to do with baseball and almost everything to do with public relations. I mean, it might have to do with baseball too but let’s face it I’m not the baseball expert that they are.
I don’t know if the Indians need a new front office. There are plenty of times when I think they do because I’m madder than I should be over sports. I can’t tell the Indians how to better build a team. I don’t know what they need to do differently from a pure x’s and o’s standpoint in free agency, the draft or international signings. What I do know is that I am right that the Indians sales message from a competitive standpoint stinks. I know that Mark Shapiro and Chris Antonetti are doing a horrible job from a P.R. standpoint with their tone and message because it infuriates me. Even if I can’t disagree with some or all of what they’re saying and doing in an ultra-rational point of view that’s not where the Indians should try to appeal to me. They should want to appeal to me in a brash, competitive fan base way that made me tell my Mets fan friends that their team sucked. You can’t do that while talking about “market realities.”
The Indians were a good guy, but they’re not anymore. The Indians are John Cena once the crowd got tired of it and started booing him even as he was a “babyface.” The Indians are any show created by Jenji Kohan. Just like Weeds and Orange is the New Black the Cleveland Indians started with a good premise and lost their way after the first couple seasons. The difference is that I was able to just stop watching Orange is the New Black and Weeds. I wasn’t geographically conscripted to those shows as a part of my local culture.
It’s time to change the message Cleveland Indians. I don’t mean just marketing or P.R. in general, but competitively. Show me some fire. Bring me back on your side. Just like grabbing a right-handed stick in any offseason, that’s in your job description and the Marla Ridenour interview tells me you’re failing.
Talking about Amy Schumer with Jessica…
Did you catch my podcast about Amy Schumer and Trainwreck with Jessica Forrester? I enjoyed getting to know WFNY’s newest staff member and talking about a variety of topics with her. Listen in!
Your weekly moment of soccer zen…
What do you do when people are disrespecting you and throwing trash at you and trying to make your job impossible? You rise above it and put your foot directly where you think it’s going to hurt the most. Mexican soccer fans were throwing garbage at this corner kick by Trinidad and Tobago. It would have been easy to shrink with such an obvious built-in excuse, but that’s not what the T&T player did. He struck a rocket across the Mexico defense where a teammate could put his head on it. Ultimate “IN YOUR FACE!” moment. I get chills watching it.
New Chvrches…
I didn’t want to like Chvrches. It probably started with the weird band name spelling. It was probably a bit too poppy for me as well at first. And then it hit me that I was reflexively disliking them for absolutely no reason. Even as I am the kind of person who says there’s no such thing as a “guilty” pleasure for me anymore, I’m kind of lying. I occasionally find reason to put on a private Spotify listening session. What I’m getting to is that I should just admit to the world that I was a Roxette fan as a kid. I loved the Pretty Woman soundtrack. I never wanted to admit it because as I became a grunge kid and then moved into hard rock, metal, and then indie rock and emo, etc. I was kind of embarrassed that I still liked “It Must Have Been Love.” And I think Chvrches reminded me of Roxette in a weird way. There’s something about the sonics behind the female vocals that is reminiscent of it to me and I was reflexively wrong. Chvrches is great. “Recover” is one of my favorite songs of the past three or four years across all music that I’ve listened to.
With all that said, there’s brand new Chvrches music on YouTube as a preview to their new album coming September 25th. The song is called “Leave a Trace” and it’s good.
76 Comments
Hmmmm… I’ll allow it.
We’re on the same page. I admit that I get too annoyed when the non-baseball fans in this town try to lay the blame on any and everything but that this isn’t a baseball town, but I agree that it’s just how it is.
It is a bad thing for the long-term prospects of the Indians being in Cleveland though.
Before the break, we went through the attendance issues. Without completely dredging those items back up, it was demonstrated that the attendance has been dropping every year for the past four years.
The fact that the Tito years have been even less attended than the 2010-2012 terrible team years is completely disheartening.
In fairness to those who are complaining, I do see justified reason do to so.
Shapiro’s message is now more audibly “annoyed” in tone when being asked questions that I think most fans want to hear him own up to.
1. When we’ve spent money, we’ve completely botched it (Hafner, Westbrook, Swisher, Bourn)
2. Our trades of our superstars which we could not afford did not play out in our favor. (Martinez, Sabathia, Lee)
3. Our drafting had been the worst in MLB
But he can’t bring himself to admit he’s royally messed up on all these account and so instead he goes down the “perfect world” road which no casual or even semi-interested fan wants to hear.
So in the end it’s the past results that allow anyone to criticize Shapiro’s current message.
Especially Victor. CC and Lee could always be explained in that they were going to leave us anyway. Seeing Vik the Stik break down in tears on his way out of town and state definitively he wanted to stay in Cleveland the rest of his career was devastating.
Probably the worst decision the Indians have made in my lifetime IMO.
It’s not so much the departures that frustrate me because I completely understand all of them. It’s what we netted in return.
Brantley, Carrasco, Masterson —> Ramsey (TBD)
Getting top-line MLB players (prospects that actually pan out) is difficult and it may have taken longer than we would have liked, but it is what happened with at least 2 of 3 trades.
I’ve increasingly become a believer in the concept that two completely contradictory things can both be equally true. So with that in mind: while I agree that most of the decisions made by the Indians front office were good moves, I also think that they were terrible decisions, that the front office has failed greatly, and that they deserve no quarter from the fans.
Also, while I disagree with a lot of what Craig said, I agree with him that yesterday’s Q&A was simply bad public relations. I am a fairly stalwart Shapiro defender and it even made me mad. We have heard all this before. If you aren’t going to tell fans that you’re going to actively pursue some players in free agency, then don’t say anything. Please don’t tell us that Jose Ramirez and Carlos Santana have disappointed. We know that because we follow the team. Also, I also have a problem with ownership so blatantly laying blame on certain players (mixed with some faint praise, of course). It’s classless, in my opinion, and distracts that issues with this team stem from the decisions made by you, Mr. Shapiro.
upvote +1, I totally forgot Carrasco was in there. I was only thinking Masterson/Brantley.
yep, one of the challenges of MLB is that things take time and most people will not connect all the dots (and we all forget about some of them, there’s just too much to have a handle on everything at all times).
yep. But honestly, it’s far different for me than it was before the Holmgren-Banner back to back. Now there is no belief to suspend. All that’s left is a lingering addiction to watching my home team play NFL football on Sunday afternoon. Without getting too excited when they win and barely affected in any way when they lose. Eleventh of the twelve steps, baby, so Mr. Haslam is on the clock.
“Where we’ve made a lot of mistakes and had a lot of inefficient dollars in our payroll is when we tried to extend them a second time. We’ve done it, we just haven’t been successful — (Travis) Hafner, (Jake) Westbrook. In today’s game, guys start to decline in that 29, 30, 31 range.”
In 2009: “”That being said, I do not view [the draft] as a strength. We haven’t been extremely effective in that area. We need to get better in that area.”
And as mgbode said, even the trades we hated for a couple years have ended up working out. He’s not lining up to take lashes, but Shapiro has certainly owned up to the poorer results.
It seems like the casual or semi-interested fan actually just hears what they want to hear out of Shapiro.
I agree with a lot of these criticisms of the presentation Shapiro made, especially any blame on specific players. Honestly, I have no idea who reads those articles expecting to learn anything or change their mind. And that’s a criticism of Shapiro/the team. There’s never anything there that most fans paying half a mind to the team aren’t already pretty aware of. The casual fan who has stayed away and didn’t already know what Shapiro was talking about? He’s not showing up anyway.
Another thought I’ve had: maybe Shaprio’s message actually has gotten through to the fans. Maybe people understand that the Tribe can’t compete thanks to MLB’s systematic issues. Maybe they decided there is no point in caring about a team that will always be at pronounced competitive disadvantage. Maybe they don’t want waste any time and energy on something so disheartening and futile.
I’m definitely starting to feel that way. I want to say, “You’re right, Mr. Shapiro. This organization can only succeed if everything goes right and then the stars align. Considering the unlikeliness of that, why should I bother following your team?”
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/23/a5/bf/23a5bf71198693faabfe4b517d9fc4d8.jpg
that is partially true, but the tone that Shapiro takes has an air of superiority to it. the tone could be so much better and get across the same message, but done much more cleanly IMO.
I wonder if he’s picked up on that too, there wasn’t much to the “were in a tough spot” that we’ve gotten in the past.
Agreed. I want to ask – what did you hope to gain by this? Part of me appreciates the honesty. Another part if tired of the hard truths and wouldn’t mind a more positive outlook.
True. I just find myself wondering, “why even be an Indians fan?”
Cause I like baseball? There’s 29 other teams.
Cause I’m from Cleveland? That’s not a blood pact.
Cause it’s the journey, not the destination? This journey is just suffering.
Cause I’m a masochist? Seems likely.
Maybe I’m wielding the sledgehammer instead of the flyswatter here, but I’m not seeing what’s partial about it. He’s bluntly said that they needed to improve the draft, and that they need to improve the bigger dollar FA signings. Is that not exactly what chris is saying the fans want to hear?
Cleaner? Of course, but I don’t see anything being able to be misconstrued. As far as superiority, I see it in the other direction. Hard-working Cleveland boys turning their noses up at a guy for having the audacity to go to Princeton.
Some combination of all of the above.
Living through the expansion Cavs, and stories like those about Gary Suiter, Ted Stepian’s absolute incompetence, always coming up just short to Jordan’s Bulls, watching Fratello drag the team through 70-68 games, and watching Ricky Davis try to get his triple double at the wrong end are going to make that championship just so much sweeter. Same for the Browns, though I’m having a bit more trouble seeing how they pull it off anytime soon.
I was waiting for you to use the sledgehammer comment back on me 🙂
every fan is less patient than every front-office person
It’s not that the statement above is not true, or that it is not known. It’s that there’s no reason for him to say it. He can say that the FO can get frustrated and want to react, but that baseball requires patience without making a blanket statement about the very people that he is addressing.
It’s a fair cop.
I agree that there’s no reason to say it, but also I find that statement to as close to an absolute truth as you can find.
Great find on the quotes; too bad he was listening to himself speak when he again dumped cash into the laps of “age declining” Swisher and Bourn.
Don’t blame this on Dolan. He passed the responsibility on to people that would bring Cleveland a winner and help recoup some money he overpaid for this team. We have simply gotten us less than mediocrity. Everyone gathers in the payroll department every 2 weeks and when Bourn, Moss, Swisher, and Santana’s names are announced a flushing toilet sound is heard and the staff wave goodbye to the money. Combined, the salaries of the mentioned is about $39 million a year. I wonder if Dolan has controlling ownership of Sugardale or Sandusky Fireworks? If not he’s losing more money than he is with the Tribe. The fans need to realize they are on a downward spiral. Get ready for the coolaid they’ll serve next year. Bottom line? Clean the front office and team of non performers. Then we can swallow the crap of youth and rebuilding once again.
You’ve done nothing to dissuade me from the belief that Indians “fans” are just looking for something to gripe about.