LeBron James, Johnny Manziel, Cleveland and the concept of home – Casual Friday – WFNY Podcast – 2014-07-18
July 18, 2014Conflicting reports surrounding Wiggins, Love
July 18, 2014So the Cavs are willing to trade Andrew Wiggins now for Kevin Love. Maybe. LeBron wants Love on this Cavs roster. But even that’s easier said than done.
Why would they make the deal now? Why wouldn’t they just wait? Who counts as what? Is Wiggins even signed? How is the Collective Bargaining Agreement involved?
As the questions pile up, we here at WFNY have compiled a bit of an FAQ of sorts to help guide you through the process. Enjoy.
Q: If Kevin Love wants to be a free agent, why don’t the Cavs just wait for him to be available and sign him?
A: The Cavaliers won’t have salary cap space to do that. LeBron James’ cap hold would be roughly $22 million. Kyrie Irving will be due roughly $18 million. Dion Waiters and Anthony Bennett will likely see their $5 million options picked up. If Tristan Thompson doesn’t get an extension, he’s looking at a $7 million qualifying offer. Factor in Andrew Wiggins’ $6 million and you’re at $63 million with just those six players. Unless Love is willing to take the veteran minimum, a trade is necessary.
That doesn’t mean it’s impossible, however. They could still do a sign-and-trade and utilize the unique feature of Brendan Haywood’s $10 million non-guaranteed deal for 2015-16. It’s not impossible, but it’s not that likely. Even less likely: LeBron opting out and taking less money to get this done in outright free agency as Love eyes up the Lakers.
Q: Andrew Wiggins hasn’t even signed his deal yet, right?
A: No, Wiggins hasn’t signed yet. If and when he signs a deal with the Cavaliers he can not be traded for 30 days.
Q: So if the Cavs trade Wiggins, what salary is used for salary matching purposes?
A: As has been pointed out in Larry Coon’s CBA FAQ, the trade value of a first- or second-round pick is always $0. There would be a lot of interesting salary math that would have to happen to make an Andrew Wiggins for Kevin Love trade happen, which is why you’re likely seeing so many other players’ names involved in rumors.
Q: But I thought the Cavaliers told Andrew Wiggins they weren’t going to trade him.
A: That was July 11 and things change in a hurry—especially in the NBA. Plus, that was just a report and maybe it was mis-information. David Blatt also did say it, but he’s not the General Manager. SI’s Chris Mannix reported on Thursday night that it’s of the belief that Wiggins would merely be the starting point and that Dion Waiters and a draft pick would still need to be added for Minnesota to pull the trigger. This said, both Andy Baskin (of NewsNet5), Tom Withers (of The AP) and Sam Amico (of FOX Sports Ohio) are still of the belief that Wiggins is not up for grabs.
Q: Why wouldn’t the Cavs deal Wiggins? He’s a rookie who is average on offense and may not peak for four or five years.
A: Have you been watching the Summer League? Sure, the kid is raw, but the potential for he and LeBron James in transition—on both ends—is highlight reel-ready. Several GMs have already said he has the potential to be a top five player in the league given enough time.
Q: Then why would the Cavs deal him? They lucked into the top pick and he’ll be one of the top players in the league—on a rookie pay scale.
A: Because Kevin Love is one of the top 12 players in the NBA. He’s a floor-spacing stretch four who also happens to be one of the better passing big men in the league. Essentially, he’s EXACTLY what David Griffin pictures when he discusses fit. He may not average 26 and 12 on a team with LeBron James and Kyrie Irving, but there’s certainly nothing wrong with 20 and 10 with the potential to drop 30 on any given night. Had he not been on a terrible team in the West, he would’ve single-handedly carried his team to the playoffs. Oh, and he’s already cool with Kyrie.
Q: If we would have told you last week that you could have LeBron James and Kevin Love if you were willing to trade Andrew Wiggins, would you have done it?
A: Good point. But Cleveland already has LeBron.
Q: But isn’t Love an injury concern?
A: Any professional athlete who plays at a high level is an injury concern. That said, Love, similar to Irving, has had to carry his team. It can be safely assumed that his usage requirements will dip a bit given the fact that he’d be surrounded by two All-Stars and a center who would’ve been right there if not for injuries of his own. You’ll never win if you’re always paranoid.
Q: Did the Cavs blow all their leverage with Thursday’s report?
A: Maybe. The Golden State Warriors refuse to trade the one-trick Klay Thompson, and even then—they would require Minnesota to take on David Lee’s contract. The market was all but dry. At least until Thursday. As reports swirled that LeBron James wants Love on the Cavs’ roster, and went as far as to reach out to recruit him, it appears that the ball is now in the Cavs’ court. Does it feel a bit dirty that James came home and immediately started hand-picking teammates? A little bit. Even if the deal doesn’t happen, the Cavs stand to be one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference. Are the Cavs willing to mortgage any hint of the future and essentially make Cleveland Miami North?
Q: Doesn’t this kind of remind everyone of the time the Cavaliers wouldn’t trade J.J. Hickson for Amare Stoudemire?
A: That NEVER happened! Dan Gilbert (among others) has been on record saying that those rumors were FLAT OUT NONSENSE. It’s the rumored deal that just won’t die! If you want a sure-fire quick way to remind everyone how little you know about the Cavs and the NBA, bring up the failed JJ for Amare trade.
Q: But what if I still have more questions?
A: Feel free to put ’em in the comments. We will do our best to answer them.
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(AP Photo/Jim Mone | Scott Sargent and Jacob Rosen contributed to this publication)
92 Comments
Let’s say Minnesota doesn’t trade him at any point and he’s a free agent.
1) Would a sign and trade work to allow the Cavs to get him?
2) Would Lebron be able to ‘opt out’ then re-sign after either they trade for Love in a sign and trade OR if they picked him up as a FA, since Lebron will be a Cavs’ FA?
3) If a sign and trade works (in either situation) why wouldn’t Minnesota do it other than to screw the Cavs? It’s free picks or goodies for them, right?
Before that point, unrelated to 1-3 above…
4) Why wouldn’t the Cavs wait until the trade deadline? Isn’t Love’s trade value to Minnesota only dropping?
Nothing in the Q&A mentions Love’s opt-out after next season.
Unless Love opts-in, extends or (at the absolute minimum) gives some sort of guarantee, he should be considered a one-year rental. Take away the name “Kevin Love”: Is Wiggins (and everyone else needed to make the salary math work) worth a one-year rental?
1) Possibly but you still would need to give up approximately 20 mil in salary so basically same trade as right now plus Haywood’s 10 million figure next year.
2) If he opts out there would be a cap hold in place until he resigns that would prevent us from going over cap to sign Love without Love’s Bird rights
Who is a “better” defender, Love or Boozer?
Thanks!
1) Why wouldn’t Love’s Bird rights help on this? Because that only helps once you’re on the team already?
2) So if we combine a sign and trade where we get his Bird rights with a Lebron opt-out, it would work?
1) We can only get Love’s Bird Rights if we trade for him now. If he hits FA his Bird rights would still be owned by Minnesota so sign and trade only would give him more years and money in possible trade and we stillwould need to match salaries
Interesting. Why do you know this so well?? 🙂
Another FAQ, on every sports talk show: Isn’t this reminiscent of the Tribe unwilling to part with one-year wonder Jared Wright to get Pedro Martinez?
No. NO! Non. Nyet. Nein. This is a cliche for all those not yet potty-trained when it occurred. Let’s not even talk about the respective talents involved. The issue for John Hart was that Pedro was in his walk year and in line for an historic contract, the largest for any pitcher to that date, which meant he’d be a one-year rental for the Tribe. Big market Boston traded for him and immediately signed him: 6 years for $75 million with an additional $17m option year. This was not a textbook example of overvaluing one’s own prospects, as is the common fallacy.
Have spent my time reading through CBA FAQs after I found out Lebron had the opt out to see if there was any way it would help bring in Love. Unfortunately most loopholes are filled.
Re: the “reports on Thursday”…welp I remember last Friday where the reports were that Gilbert’s letter was still an issue and it was now trending away from LBJ returning…we know how that worked out. While I want Love, I don’t think it’s time to start getting antsy just yet. I still think there’s time to wait. At least until summer league is over
all of the like buttons
Yeah, I assumed the opt out was somehow helpful for signing other people next year (and perhaps it is, if Lebron is willing to take less money for someone).
So if it’s not for that, why the opt out [non-CLE panicked reasons] – just in case a new TV deal comes in sooner/new CBA sooner?
The opt out is in because LeBron wants to maximize his earnings. If he had signed a max deal with us last week he would have only been able to get a 4.5% raise from year 1 to year 2 (due to not having his full bird rights). Under the Non-Bird Exception rule by opting out he will be able to get a 5% raise on a one year deal next season. Then the following year once new CBA rules come out he can then decide what makes more sense for him. Probably another one year deal because once he plays for us for 3 consecutive years we get full bird rights and his annual raise on a max deal would jump to 7.5% per year.
If we had either Jack or Zeller I’d be on board with this right now. Losing the Memphis pick and the ability to draft space eating, rim protecting 5 at spot 9-14 worries me. Depending on Andy to stay healthy all year (because we traded Bennett/Tristan) scares me. Depending on Mike Miller (because we traded Dion) to play substantial minutes petrifies me.
Or “Love” buttons, as it were
We need an Ender button
Do the Cavs have any trade exceptions?
Jason Lloyd reported we had a 3 million dollar exception from Gee trade. i think that is the only one.
What about from the Jack/Karasev/Zeller deal? I thought that created one for each player?
He supposedly said he’d sign long term w/the Cavs. And you’d have to figure LBJ talking to him is to convince him to do so.
Could be the case but haven’t seen anyone report a number. Technically the Celtics used their exception from the Paul Pierce trade which was set to expire shortly after the trade…so it is possible it has already expired. I’m not positive on that though.
Has anyone seen a rumored trade that would actually work under the cap? Aren’t Wiggins/Bennett/pick or Wiggins/Waiters/pick well short of what’s needed to make the money work?
What is the rush on this? Why do we have to absolutely make a deal right now? Let the Cavs see what LeBron and Irving can do together with the other pieces around, including Wiggins. Wait for the trade deadline when Minnesota is in 10th in the West and they need to get rid of Kevin Love so they don’t lose him with nothing to show for it. Come February the Cavs will have all of the bargaining chips. Plus what if Wiggins turns out to be a budding star in his first few months.
The TPE from this deal was “renounced” by the Cavs in order to sign LBJ
1.) Are the Cavs currently under the cap still? If so does that give them any flexibility to absorb more salary than they are parting with?
2.) Have they picked up Andy’s team option at $9.8M yet? Or is the hold up, negotiating a longer term deal w/him with a smaller starting salary to create more cap room/allow them to absorb more salary in trade?
3.) Can we reasonably expect Gilbert to go DEEP into the luxury tax to build this team? Kyrie + LBJ + Love + a S&T next season = a lot of $$$!
Technically until Wiggins signs a contract he has no salary so odds are if we trade him it would be an agreement in which we sign him and trade goes through after 30 days pass. Assuming we sign Wiggins a combination of any of the 2 of Wiggins/Waiters/Tristan/Bennett plus Haywood is enough salary to put deal through assuming it is just for Love.
Salaries don’t have to match exactly they just have to be within a certain percentage of one another and ESPN Trade generator shows that using everyone excluding Wiggins works within salary guidelines (ESPN hasn’t assigned Wiggins a number yet since unsigned).
I get that it’s necessary for salary purposes, but I just don’t like trading Haywood this year. His $10.5M nonguaranteed next season is such a huge trade chip to add another piece.
Only reason for making deal right now is to not get outbid by someone else…for instance Golden State changing their mind and adding Klay Thompson to deal. I think the reports are being blown out of proportion and Cavs aren’t in a rush yet. Waiting does lead to potentially missing out since there are other teams who may be fine with renting him come deadline.
I forgot you can keep haywood and trade the Gee trade exception as well…forgot about that.
1) I believe it is only around 1.5 mil so no real flexibility with that.
3.) He has said he would in past, but only he truly knows.
I still think they can try to get him in a S&T next season from the team that rented him this year. I’m sure they would want to get at least a few picks for him rather than nothing.
1.) ~1.5 million
2.) Haven’t heard anything about Andy, but this would/could be a great way to free up a bit of cap space for this year and going forward.
3.) one or two years of luxury tax is feasible for Gilbert, but b/c of the “repeater-tax”, in which teams pay in excess of $3 for every $1 over the cap, the days in which teams can just spend and spend and spend year after year are likely over.
is Klay on the last year before he makes $15mil/year really that much more of an outbid? I mean, wouldn’t Minny at least check-in if GS did up the ante one last time before making that deal and we could decide at that time?
Due to salary cap restrictions still would have to unload Haywood’s 10 million plus additional player or players since we will be up against cap next year as well. So you still are looking at giving up either a Waiters or Bennett or Tristan (probably not Wiggins at that point). Plus he can negotiate with any team and Minnesota would have to agree to deal if he chooses us. No guarantee he won’t choose West Coast or New York over Cleveland.
The one thing Thursday’s report did was really put the Twolves in a tough position with their fans. There were other reports from NEO sources that Wiggins is still off the table (as Craig mentions), but ESPN has not given ANY airtime to those reports. So, most Twolve fans are going to be extremely disappointed if they get anything less than Wiggins from the Cavs (or anyone else).
Imagine being a Twolf fan, seeing these reports and then end up paying Klay + Lee $30mil combined each year while GS pays Love $20mil. Ouch.
We have seen firsthand through our sport teams how fan unrest affects GM’s that are on the hot-seat. So, I do believe that this report pretty much freezes any chance at Love being traded soon (unless it is true and the Cavs are willing to give up the #1 overall pick from a loaded draft for a player who might only be here 1 year).
If they check in they are going to ask for our best possible offer at that point so good luck with any type of negotiation leverage.
if we trade Haywood to get Love, then we are cashing in on his asset now instead of later. it’s not like Minny wouldn’t understand that they have a $10mil trade chip next offseason to utilize.
Irving-James-Love….3 players with high usage rates.
No one else care that we’d be severely butt cheeks on defense with these 3 taking up over 90 percent of our cap space? Where is the depth? Who is going to protect the rim?
just saying that we don’t have to make the offer now. we can wait it out and see what information we can gather on our own. who knows what other options may pop up.
I think we should keep as many options open to us as long as we can.
I would just rather see him not included in a trade this year to allow the Cavs yet another large trade option next year. Build a Big 5 not a Big 4 and definitely not a Big 3. Pickup an all star level defensive minded C next year.
Ok, you can’t argue with math.
So, allow me to illustrate this situation mathematically…
The better question, one which I haven’t seen mention either in the story or asked in the user section is the Cavaliers salary structure starting next season if they add Love.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-trading-andrew-wiggins-kevin-134100309.html
The Indians never make any big moves unless you want to count Bourn and Swisher which I don’t. A better example is them being close to getting Randy Johnson when he ended up in Houston.
Is this reference needed every time?
I think this is exactly what Griffin is doing. It’s just all those “reporters” out there looking for their next big story.
Wiggins is the best asset the T-Wolves will get for Love, now, or ever. That being the case, why the rush in making a trade? The T-Wolves have no leverage whatsoever. None. If they do not trade Love he leaves next offseason and they get nothing. The longer this plays out, the more panicked they will become.
The Haywood contract may be more valuable to the Cavs than Wolves. If the Wolves aren’t going to be over the cap, the Haywood contract just trades cap space for trade possibilities. But for a team over the cap, only way to add salary is trades.
“Does it feel a bit dirty that James came home and immediately started hand-picking teammates?”
No. This is not LeBron demanding that Romeo Travis be added to the roster a la JR Smith bringing his brother to the Knicks; this is one of the best big men in the league. I have no issue with James pushing for this move to happen.
3 – Because there are other offers Minnesota can take before next summer.
4 – Because of those other offers. And seemingly with this recent report, Love’s trade value is going up at the moment.
Because there is some non-zero chance that Love re-signs. One, the Cavs can offer more money than anyone else, a very nice trump card to have, and haven’t all the reports suggested that this is a place Love is looking to play long-term, on a contender? Sure, it’s not 100% that he’ll re-sign, but I’d say it’s close, unless things really fall apart.