Watch: Top prospect Francisco Lindor’s 6th home run for Akron RubberDucks
June 24, 2014WFNY on the World Cup: Move over Heath Ledger, Luis Suárez is my new favorite villain.
June 25, 2014Fresh off news that the Washington Redskins have lost a trademark ruling regarding their name, the Indians are being protested during their visit to the Arizona Diamondbacks. The group, Eradicating Offensive Native Mascotry, is led by a social worker named Amanda Blackhorse.
“I know people don’t understand why we do this,” said Blackhorse, a social worker in Kayenta, on the Navajo Nation. “They say things like, ‘What about the Vikings? Are they next?’ But the Vikings aren’t an indigenous people of North America who are historically oppressed.
“We still exist. People think we’re actually like the Vikings… an idea of a people from the past.”
In the clip below, Blackhorse goes on to say that Chief Wahoo is one of the most racist logos “out there.”
78 Comments
Good for them. Since most Keep-the-Chiefers think that the only folks who care are “white liberals”, it’s nice to hear from the folks actually affected by our willful ignorance.
Brace yourself. The pro-Wahoo mouth-breathers will still be clamoring for the hallowed nationwide survey that shows a majority (51%, 65%, 95%?) of Native Americans are opposed to the logo.
It’s sad to me to think how many times Amanda Blackhorse has had to face a smug white person proffering the question “WELL, WADDABOUT THE FIGHTIN’ IRISH, WADDABOUT THE VIKINGS!!1!” as if they’ve caught her in some well-reasoned syllogism. The fact that anyone could still cling to this rhetoric with any degree of seriousness is deeply discouraging.
What court case did the Redskins lose? I haven’t heard about this.
pro-Wahoo mouth-breathers
cmon humboldt. immediately resorting to name-calling?
Courts took away their trademark:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/sports/football/us-patent-office-cancels-redskins-trademark-registration.html?_r=0
It’s as if people actually believe that Leprechauns are real and Native
Americans are mythical creatures that have never existed.
Have to agree with mgbode – as much as there are a lot of mouthbreathers on the pro-Wahoo side (ever looked at the Keep The Chief Facebook page – a good example of mouthbreathing) there are also a lot of otherwise reasonable and intelligent folks who I’d like to engage . . .
They’re phasing it out already.
Don’t they do this every year? Is it still newsworthy?
The only issue with this is that the unreasonable and unintelligent folks who maintain the stance that “Wahoo can’t possibly be racist because asdfghjkasdf” seem to be much louder than anyone reasonable and intelligent.
and why did mouth-breathers become such a disparaging term? some of us have allergy problems!
On the interwebs, I suppose you’re right – I’m referring mostly to conversations I’ve had. Nonetheless I feel it my responsibility to keep the discourse civil.
Actually, I’m not calling anyone a name unless you find “Pro-Wahoo” to be insulting. The other bit is a commentary on the obstreperous, anti-intellectual manner of argumentation that a very vocal minority of those folks commonly use in defending the logo [see below for the quintessential example, although there is also a red face in the video embedded above].
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/jv3quvmvmpyxu3wf2d3c.jpg
you direct your comment to pro-Wahoo people, then you indicate the disparaging term of mouth-breather upon them, which is now commonly used for saying that a person is so stupid that they never even learned how to breathe through their nose.
but, you are not name-calling? as I started off, humboldt, you are a good poster and obviously the topic is one you care about, but I think you are allowing yourself to delve a bit off your normal rational tone on this one.
I just looked at the Facebook page you recommended. The first post states “If you like your sports Logo, Then you can KEEP it.”
Um. Ok.
A quick scroll through reveals the same failing arguments (a Native American high school hasn’t rejected the mascot “Redskins” therefore Washington’s team shouldn’t have to forfeit the logo; there are caricatures of Italian chefs on pizza boxes therefore chief Wahoo isn’t wrong, etc).
This may not be the “mouth-breathing” you find in comment sections on cleveland.com, I’ll grant you that, but it is vacuous. There are no “reasonable and intelligent” arguments being made here.
There is a small contingent of people who consistently post about this issue and, who, without fail, can be expected to offer the same tenor/type of argument. Clearly, they don’t represent all the Pro-Wahoo folks, including yourself, as I know you are a proponent of keeping the logo and have offered a thoughtful perspective as per usual. However, to deny that this vocal minority exists, and to fail to acknowledge that they tend to recycle the same type of arguments, usually at a high-volume, is simply denying an empirical reality.
As for mouth-breathing, your interpretation of that term is interesting. I have always seen it as referring to someone who keeps yelling about an issue without pausing to breathe – thus reflecting a certain zeal or excitability. You seem to see it more as a commentary on intelligence, which is why I think my comment may have irritated you. Urban dictionary favors your definition (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mouthbreather) so perhaps I’ll rethink my usage of it in the future.
The more you know…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3rhQc666Sg
Sorry, you misunderstood my point. The Facebook page is a good example of the mouthbreathers, NOT the intelligent ones . . .
ah, ok, sorry, reading fast this morning. Would be happy to look at any examples of thoughtful online commentary from the Pro-Wahoo folks
Feels like we’re in the middle of a swelling sea change in attitude. Twenty years ago these protesters were met with mostly derision and disbelief. Then they were ignored as if part of other opening day silliness. Now there’s widespread soul-searching, with logo supporters carefully looking for native Americans who don’t voice objections or falling back on some version of the “PC” complaint.
It’s just a matter of time. The Dolans may feel paralyzed by their precarious economics, but their grandchildren will be so proud if they can find a way to get out ahead of this issue, even if only by a few years or months. The demise of the logo is imminent, and the name change inevitable even if that part takes a little longer .
I think technology/internet/social media has a lot to do with it. I used to be staunchly pro-Wahoo. I was one of the people who rolled his eyes at the protests. I was ignorant. I had never met an American Indian, I had never heard their point of view, didn’t know the arguments that were out there.
Thanks to the internet, I have read so much about American Indians’ struggles throughout history and the way they feel about sports logos and mascots and how they promote false stereotypes and a common minsunderstanding of what American Indian culture is all about.
This is why I get frustrated when people say this is just all about Americans becoming “wussified” and “everyone is just too damn PC these days”. It’s not about that at all for me. It’s just about utilizing the technology I had available to educate myself on what this issue is actually all about. When you realize there are actually real people behind this and that it’s not just some “white liberal agenda”, you begin to understand that sometimes it’s best to just stop offending people and promoting things that spread false ideas about what their culture stands for.
Ah, I see. Yes, it was your usage of the term that had me off as it is generally used as an attack on intelligence when used in the political arena (as urbandictionary demonstrates).
I think I would more often use the term blowhard for those who yell without thinking, though still you could have gotten the point across without any such term. Change “mouth-breathers” to “crowd” in your first post and we don’t have this discourse. Of course, then we both don’t learn more about the mouth-breather term, so it was useful in that respect.
Thing I learned from some searching: Mouth-breathers usage as a disparaging term on intelligence gained traction after the Napoleon Dynamite movie.
that’s interesting. I don’t see the internet as a driving force so much as a powerful reflector of attitudes already changing. Public schools now teach children about native Americans in a way that would have been considered the attitudes only of a few “radical” academics not so long ago. The way I see it it’s a demographics thing; those children are growing up. Peeps in their 60s now use the internet a ton, but I don’t see their attitudes shifting radically.
Stripping aside some of your arguments above that we have debated previously, the name and logo have become a divisive part of the team. Sports, at their best, should be a way of bringing a community together. As Chief Wahoo and the Indian’s name tears the community apart more and more, it should be inevitable that a change is made.
The biggest obstacle remaining is the branding element. The reason that the Redskins and Indians owners fight so hard to keep the name/logo is that fans are emotionally tied to the teams of their youth. Yes, there would be a surge in merchandising income immediately following a change, but there also would be a mental break from the good memories of those teams. The Redskins Superbowl wins would be less tied with team. The 1990s Indians would have less of a connection. That matters deeply to the owners as they know that they depend on such strong connections to drive the loyalty in their teams that helps keep them as strong as possible financially.
For an example, just look at how long and hard Charlotte fought to get the Hornets name and colors back for their team (or how hard we fought to make sure the Browns name and colors never left our city).
It is one of the reasons that I favor the Cleveland Fellers as a name/logo (plus, it’s a really cool looking logo). Bob Feller was a staple of several generations of fans (even after his playing days). Plus, I don’t think we want the mocking that would come with calling our team the Belles (though that is the name we should use if there is ever a pro-softball league).
Here is a question that I have not heard asked, Are we considering teaming with a group of American Indians rights activists to come up with a new logo that would enable us to honor American Indians? Or are we just going to hit the easy button and go with a block C?
Not to mention Hollywood. American Indians (preferred term) are rarely depicted in any negative light whatsoever in films. As with any society, there are good elements and bad elements, but it is not allowed to show the bad for them now just as it was extremely unpopular in Hollywood to show the good for them just 50 years ago.
Further proof of the cultural value of Napoleon Dynamite, one of my personal favorite films in the last decade. Can’t recall off hand when the reference was made, or by which character…
The irony in the term “mouth-breather” is that I presume it’s supposed to refer to a knuckle-dragging, proto-human who is lesser evolved. And yet, one of the intriguing morphological adaptations of neanderthals was the development of a sophisticated upper respiratory tract, with significantly greater breadth in the nostrils than anatomically modern humans. In other words, neanderthals, living in their cold northern European climate, were far less prone to mouth-breathing than we are 😉
“Fellers” would be ironic. Bob Feller was a cranky defender of the name and logo and decried “PC” attitudes. He had strong, unfiltered opinions about ethnic groups that would make every commenter on this thread cringe. If I have time I’ll find some links. Cleveland idolizes any HOFer, but he was certainly not a beloved Stan Musial/Ernie Banks type ambassador.
Oh that?That was a unilateral ruling by a federal agency. It wasn’t a court case, and the Redskins had no way to defend their position.
There is also the fact that it doesn’t really matter because they can defend their trademark through common-law.
RE: breaking memories with the team
Perhaps it’s just me – but I wouldn’t remember the 90’s, or any other era of Tribe baseball for that matter, any less fondly should the name be changed. It’s the team and more importantly the city in front of the name that’s key.
Neither (I hope).
There’s no good reason why the Cleveland baseball team should try to “honor” native Americans, and simply stated people should not be mascots.
I certainly hope we can come up with a “real” name and logo for the team which is memorable and relevant.
Law Banter! Law Banter!
You wouldn’t remember the 90s any less fondly, but basic human tendency would be to unconsciously disassociate them with a team of a different name. That is why branding has proven to be so important.
I know people on the anti-Wahoo side of the debate see nothing wrong or offensive about “The Fighting Irish” but you really should research anti-Irish racism in America. The Fighting Irish is denigrating in every sense of the word and for people like you to poo-poo it makes me dump you into the same category as your oh-so-eloquently stated “Pro-Wahoo Mouthbreathers” category.
Two wrongs don’t make a right but that doesn’t mean you can dismiss a wrong just because you are ignorant that it is wrong.
This is an easy one Hopwin. Nearly all ethnic groups can claim to have suffered injustices and unfair treatment (i.e. racism) over time, but few can claim government-sponsored genocide against them, as can Native Americans. I am happy to read anything about US government efforts to eradicate Irish-Americans if you are able to furnish the source material.
I do believe that Notre Dame was founded on racism (there are a few conflicting reports, but overall it seems the French-founded school was having fun with the poorer Irish folk in the area). However, I also believe it is not a great example as the Irish Catholic of the nation have co-opted the school as their own and used the moniker as a bit of a rallying cry.
A better example on the ignorance of the Irish history is that the Reds were named Redlegs for a bit (anti-communism 50s) and that they still utilize Mr. Redlegs as their mascot. That is a derogatory term for Irish slaves that were falsely brought over as indentured servants only to not have their contracts upheld:
http://barbadosfreepress.wordpress.com/2009/12/28/irish-times-most-barbados-red-legs-have-bad-or-no-teeth-many-blind-without-limbs/
Is “Indians” offensive though? It’s inaccurate and unspecific, yes. But offensive? I ask because I truly don’t know.
No, in fact, American Indian is the preferred term over Native American.
And, Harv will enjoy the correct usage of the word literally in this link.
http://blog.nmai.si.edu/main/2011/01/introduction-1st-question-american-indian-or-native-american.html
Were you born in the United States? If so, you are technically a native American, a label that literally describes anyone who was born in and remains a citizen of a country in North, South, or Central America.
“Indian” is the term used in federal law. It is also the official term used by major U.S. Indian agencies and organizations, including the Bureau of Indian Affairs, Indian Health Service, National Congress of the American Indians, National Indian Education Association, and National Museum of the American Indian. In modern usage, the legal term “Indian” usually means an enrolled member of a federally recognized tribe (or one who is eligible to be enrolled in a federally recognized tribe).
So then a blackface logo would be acceptable since it has nothing to do with genocide, it is merely denigrating.
A people who have suffered legal bondage in the US could make a similar claim as Native Americans that a racialized caricature (i.e. Sambo) is absolutely inappropriate. I encourage you not to further pursue this line of reasoning, as it does not end well…
Looks like the prospect of getting ahead of the issue may already be a non-starter: http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/24597118/native-american-group-planning-lawsuit-against-indians-chief-wahoo-logo
Bob Feller was a horrible person; good baseball player but a terrible human being.
Cleveland Foresters or Spiders are much better routes… or hey…. I got an idea… just keep the name and dump the logo.
I love Cleveland Foresters (reminds me of playing in the Metroparks as a kid). I just don’t think the name “Indians” is tenable if the logo is dropped because it still carries colonial overtones. Better to just clear the slate and find another name/concept that will connect with our local mythos. It could be a really enjoyable process that engages fans, similar to when the Cavs put their new jersey color/design to a vote for the fans back in 2003 before Lebron.
Thanks! Great info! If so, then why are people constantly suggesting the Indians should/need to change their name?
I fully understand and support ditching Wahoo. But the team name is innocuous.
Why note, regarding the new logo? What is a “good reason?”
that suit is a joke. $9B?
No suit that seeks damages in that amount that isn’t something like oil spill-big can be taken seriously.
So your argument is that A + B are racist because you have arbitrarily decided so but C does not make the cut because you have deemed their historical suffering are not enough. I suppose the enslavement of the Irish by the British has no impact either because you’d prefer to poo-poo it away with your magic wand.
There are those that do not believe that people should be mascots particularly when the general populace cheering for the team does not associate themselves with that term that is still presently used.
So, according to those terms, Dallas Cowboys is okay (Texans associate themselves with cowboys). Minnesota Vikings is okay (Vikings historical people).
Cleveland Burning Rivers (embrace it!)