With the rumor, speculation, hysteria, and paranoia regarding the Cleveland Browns search for a head coach ramping up, we decided to look at a few of the issues surrounding all the noise. Check out the conversation below:
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Well, we don’t really know for sure. I mean, perception COULD be reality. It’s entirely plausible and possible that they wanted McDaniels, he turned them down. Then they wanted Gase, and he turned them down. Or it’s possible they’re just being patient and going through the process. We just don’t know.
The only thing I know for sure is that I don’t care for the perception, whether it is reality or not.
Yeah, you’re right, Andrew, the perception is, shall we say, a little less than optimal.
But getting “turned down” by young unproven assistants whose alleged qualifications have been puffed up by somebody is no reason for gnashing of teeth. It’s probably a good thing.
I’m willing to chalk up Mike Pettine’s 3-4 defense’s lack of sacks during his time with the Jets to lack of talent at OLB. Look at these names during his tenure: Vernon Gholston, Aaron Maybin, Calvin Pace, Garrett McIntyre, Ricky Sapp, Bryan Thomas, Jamaal Westerman, Marques Murrell, and Jason Taylor (in his final season). I challenge anyone to put sacks on the board with that collection of stiffs at your primary sack positions.
Oh, I generally agree. As I said, I didn’t want McDaniels or Gase. So I don’t mind the actual outcome. I just hate that the organization I root for has put themselves in position where this perception can run rampant and, candidly, there’s nothing we can do about it. It exists for a reason, and they kind of deserve it. The perception won’t change until these guys figure out how to start winning games.
Maybe the perception is worse, but from the outside, all we have is perception. And you want doom and gloom? I’ll give it to you…
Is it really (in my best Vizzini voice) inconceivable that we don’t get Pettine, we don’t get Quinn, NOBODY wants the job and we end up hiring someone that nobody has ever heard of before a month or so down the road, leaving us with even fewer options to round out the coaching staff, we draft Johnny F Football only for him to pull a Leaf/Eli and demand out of Cleveland on draft night, other players start demanding out because of the circus we have become, we somehow miraculously start the season playing well only to come crashing down again and end with 2-3 wins, and now the front office is forced to decide whether or not to fire yet another coach after 1 year because the results sucked and hey, it’s not like this guy was in their top-10 anyways, and 1 year from now here we are again, only this time we’re even worse off than now because, even if there are more qualified candidates looking for a HC position, let’s be honest, who is ever gonna wanna come coach here, meanwhile Chip Kelley’s Eagles and Ken Whisenhunt’s Titans just duked it out in the Super Bowl. Seriously…is that TOO Cleveland, or is it actually, somehow, somewhat, in someway the tiniest bit feasible that this is what will come to pass?
I read an article somewhere that illustrated the perils of blindly sticking to a “system” rather than taking advantage of the talents of the players you have. The writer noted that we drafted Mingo to get sacks, but he spent more time dropping back in coverage than rushing the passer. DUH!!! That’s like coaching malpractice, right?
To say that these guys “spurned” the Browns implies that something was offered to them. As far as any of us know, the only thing offered was an interview (and some of them took the interview). To turn down an interview is not the same thing as spurning, and I think we shouldn’t discount the notion (mentioned by Scott) that some of these guys may have publicly taken their names out of consideration in order to preserve their eligibility to other teams when it became clear that the Browns weren’t going to make an offer. Agents can be smart in many ways.
Also, while I understand it, I don’t share the angst over whether the new coach can fill his staff. The fact that it’s now January 22 does not at all impact whether a coach can or will leave the team he’s currently with in order to become part of the Browns. All of these coaches have broad webs of relationships and connections within the coaching community, and it is presumed that all of these guys presently have jobs. There’s really nothing that compels a guy to keep a job now more than 2 weeks ago, particularly if that guy would really like to join the new head coach in a new location. Until rookie camp (or college spring ball), there’s really not anything taking place that is all that significant to assistants – and they are as free to leave now as they were the minute after their respective seasons ended.
I think I’ve reached, and will try to honor, my self-imposed quota for comments on this issue today.
What I find most interesting (depressing?) is that, initially, all of the focus was on OMG OFFENSIVE GURU-GENIUS-COMPUTER for our new QB.
But, since all of those guys turned us down, now the focus is on defensive guys. The fact that they’ve had to switch focuses seems indicative that the public perception (dumpster fire) is reality.
in Pettine’s defense of his defense, those Jets teams were quite good at D despite their inability to get to the QB. he adjusted those systems due to the OLB shortcomings.
I agree on Mingo. Once he was forced into a starting role early in the year, we abandoned him as a pass-rush specialist (early season that’s what he was and was doing okay). It seemed that once we were forced to have him as a 3-down guy, we tried to stick with it. I wanted to see him just fly at the QB and do some stunts with Bryant, but oh well.
Totally agree that winning is the ultimate panacea. But I don’t buy that we as fans as media don’t have a part in all this “perception” game…and that the tail is wagging the dog. The sheer pitchforked panic and negative outpouring on the fan/local media side is palpable. It may not have created–but it fuels the perception that this is a “dumpster fire.” Someone utters that, and it’s repeated, and the mantra gets retweeted and there is a swirl of negative perception that spreads out and out. Some fans are somehow getting off on the idea that we’re complete failures with no hope, fueled by the above perception. It’s a vicious cycle. Yep, winning cures all of that–but man, you can’t tell me the negative energy we as a whole are pouring into the press doesn’t feed this “perception.” And you can’t tell me it’s not in some part a turn off to coaches and players who could potentially come here.
gase bailed before 1 question was asked, he wouldn’t even take the first interview to hear more about the opportunity/vision or the very least learn from the experience as he’s more than likely going to be considered for future opportunities. mcdaniels at least took the time to hear about the job before deciding he didn’t want it. not a good look. i’m experiencing a bit of shadenfreude with this leadership team even though i love the team. oddly conflicted…
Once again leading to the question of “How does a team with obvious weaknesses in need of a significant talent infusion at a critical position decide to draft a specialist player in the top ten picks?” The answer, of course, is because the Browns. Or the Cavaliers.
I disagree. Pass rush specialist is a real position of need in today’s NFL and worthy of a top10 pick (if you get it right). Aldon Smith was nothing more than a pass rush specialist his rookie year. Same with DeMarcus Ware.
They either used Mingo wrong (I hope) or he’s not as good at pass rushing as they expected. Now, if they were planning/hoping on Mingo, then they should have gotten a CB instead of Groves in FA. But, that’s another story.
Let’s list out the process thus far. Please help me out if I missed anyone. I am trying to keep the list to people we have actually interviewed thus far but the 3 bigger rumors I put on there too.
never really in the running
Stoops – seemingly used us as leverage to get raise. Not much smoke round quick up&down rumor.
Tressel – some smoke that he wanted an interview, but Browns never offered.
SF – Roman, Tomsula, Seely have popped up in rumors over the last month, but you’d think they would be mentioned this week if we were going to interview them.
Wanted out of the Running
McDaniels – interviewed, withdrew
Gase – requested interview, declined
Bowles – interviewed, withdrew
Malzahn – requested interview, never heard anything
McAdoo – interviewed, took job as Giants OC
Whisenhunt – interviewed, took job as Titans HC
Apparently, still in the running but not discussed much
Rich Bisaccia – we apparently interviewed him, then he disappeared from rumors.
Still in running and discussed
Munchak – interviewed
Koetter? – may be interviewed?
Quinn – interviewed once, waiting on 2nd interview
Vettine – interviewed 2X, likely the favorite currently
One huge difference the 49ers had much more talent around Aldon Smith then do the Browns with Mingo. You don’t draft a “pass rush specialist” when you need linebackers, another corner and a safety. And I’ll gladly debate anyone who thinks Mingo is a “pass rush specialist” because for me he’s not. He’s a tweener he’s not a linebacker and he’s not a defensive end. Which means he basically can only play in a 3-4 where he can JUST rush the passer.
I agree that having a pass rush specialist is nice. But a linebacker who doesn’t rack up his tackle numbers 8 yards from the LOS seemed like a more important piece. Or a corner who doesn’t spend the majority of the week leading up to the game in the burn unit following his performance in the previous game. I know that no draft pick is a lock to succeed, but I’d rather see those rather gaping holes be plugged before we go for a situational guy. The Niners can afford a luxury project type. The Browns cannot.
Completely agree that winning games is the most important outcome here. And, I’m happy to lose January press releases if we end up hiring the guy to figure that part out. Even if perception is reality and that guy happens to be the FO’s 10th choice (as long as he wins, who cares where he was on the initial list — if there even was an initial ranked list).
Sadly, it’s not. Our YPC rush defense was fantastic last year. Cannot complain about it. Yes, Robertson was especially terrible in pass coverage and it’d have been nice to have him replaced, but you can find that later in the draft (our fault for not trying). When you are in the top10, go and get the hard to find skills like pass rusher.
When the 49ers drafted Aldon Smith, they could not afford the luxury. He afforded them the luxury by being good (which helps the secondary and everybody else).
49ers had a mediocre defense and went 6-10 the year before they drafted Aldon (and hired Harbaugh). He helps make that defense go (just look at how much better they were with him this year too).
did we need help rushing the passer? heck yeah. we weren’t very good last year (and part of that is that Mingo didn’t get there). I find fault in that Mingo didn’t get to the QB. I don’t find fault in them seeing that pass rush was a big need.
The newest regime is bearing the brunt of 14 years of nothing but past failures. Couple that with what happened in their first major coaching search and it only makes sense why so many people feel the way they do. If you don’t it’s either because you are a complete homer or maybe you don’t really care as much as the people who this kind of stuff bothers.
96 Comments
IT’S ALL PART OF THE PLAN!!!11!!!
Too much gloom and doom, guys. The perception IS worse than the reality. Let’s not over-react to every little blip on the radar.
Besides, I have it on very good authority that Bob Stoops has the inside track.
Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends
We’re so glad you could attend
Come inside! Come inside!
There behind a glass is a real blade of grass
Be careful as you pass.
Move along! Move along!
Well, we don’t really know for sure. I mean, perception COULD be reality. It’s entirely plausible and possible that they wanted McDaniels, he turned them down. Then they wanted Gase, and he turned them down. Or it’s possible they’re just being patient and going through the process. We just don’t know.
The only thing I know for sure is that I don’t care for the perception, whether it is reality or not.
Yeah, you’re right, Andrew, the perception is, shall we say, a little less than optimal.
But getting “turned down” by young unproven assistants whose alleged qualifications have been puffed up by somebody is no reason for gnashing of teeth. It’s probably a good thing.
I’m willing to chalk up Mike Pettine’s 3-4 defense’s lack of sacks during his time with the Jets to lack of talent at OLB. Look at these names during his tenure: Vernon Gholston, Aaron Maybin, Calvin Pace, Garrett McIntyre, Ricky Sapp, Bryan Thomas, Jamaal Westerman, Marques Murrell, and Jason Taylor (in his final season). I challenge anyone to put sacks on the board with that collection of stiffs at your primary sack positions.
Hail Mary pass to the kid from Canton
Oh, I generally agree. As I said, I didn’t want McDaniels or Gase. So I don’t mind the actual outcome. I just hate that the organization I root for has put themselves in position where this perception can run rampant and, candidly, there’s nothing we can do about it. It exists for a reason, and they kind of deserve it. The perception won’t change until these guys figure out how to start winning games.
Maybe the perception is worse, but from the outside, all we have is perception. And you want doom and gloom? I’ll give it to you…
Is it really (in my best Vizzini voice) inconceivable that we don’t get Pettine, we don’t get Quinn, NOBODY wants the job and we end up hiring someone that nobody has ever heard of before a month or so down the road, leaving us with even fewer options to round out the coaching staff, we draft Johnny F Football only for him to pull a Leaf/Eli and demand out of Cleveland on draft night, other players start demanding out because of the circus we have become, we somehow miraculously start the season playing well only to come crashing down again and end with 2-3 wins, and now the front office is forced to decide whether or not to fire yet another coach after 1 year because the results sucked and hey, it’s not like this guy was in their top-10 anyways, and 1 year from now here we are again, only this time we’re even worse off than now because, even if there are more qualified candidates looking for a HC position, let’s be honest, who is ever gonna wanna come coach here, meanwhile Chip Kelley’s Eagles and Ken Whisenhunt’s Titans just duked it out in the Super Bowl. Seriously…is that TOO Cleveland, or is it actually, somehow, somewhat, in someway the tiniest bit feasible that this is what will come to pass?
I read an article somewhere that illustrated the perils of blindly sticking to a “system” rather than taking advantage of the talents of the players you have. The writer noted that we drafted Mingo to get sacks, but he spent more time dropping back in coverage than rushing the passer. DUH!!! That’s like coaching malpractice, right?
(I can’t verify any of this.)
Has anyone seen anything about why the Browns haven’t interviewed Greg Roman?
To say that these guys “spurned” the Browns implies that something was offered to them. As far as any of us know, the only thing offered was an interview (and some of them took the interview). To turn down an interview is not the same thing as spurning, and I think we shouldn’t discount the notion (mentioned by Scott) that some of these guys may have publicly taken their names out of consideration in order to preserve their eligibility to other teams when it became clear that the Browns weren’t going to make an offer. Agents can be smart in many ways.
Also, while I understand it, I don’t share the angst over whether the new coach can fill his staff. The fact that it’s now January 22 does not at all impact whether a coach can or will leave the team he’s currently with in order to become part of the Browns. All of these coaches have broad webs of relationships and connections within the coaching community, and it is presumed that all of these guys presently have jobs. There’s really nothing that compels a guy to keep a job now more than 2 weeks ago, particularly if that guy would really like to join the new head coach in a new location. Until rookie camp (or college spring ball), there’s really not anything taking place that is all that significant to assistants – and they are as free to leave now as they were the minute after their respective seasons ended.
I think I’ve reached, and will try to honor, my self-imposed quota for comments on this issue today.
What I find most interesting (depressing?) is that, initially, all of the focus was on OMG OFFENSIVE GURU-GENIUS-COMPUTER for our new QB.
But, since all of those guys turned us down, now the focus is on defensive guys. The fact that they’ve had to switch focuses seems indicative that the public perception (dumpster fire) is reality.
hehe – candidly.
in Pettine’s defense of his defense, those Jets teams were quite good at D despite their inability to get to the QB. he adjusted those systems due to the OLB shortcomings.
I agree on Mingo. Once he was forced into a starting role early in the year, we abandoned him as a pass-rush specialist (early season that’s what he was and was doing okay). It seemed that once we were forced to have him as a 3-down guy, we tried to stick with it. I wanted to see him just fly at the QB and do some stunts with Bryant, but oh well.
Probably the same reasons they haven’t interviewed any SF coordinators yet.
Totally agree that winning is the ultimate panacea. But I don’t buy that we as fans as media don’t have a part in all this “perception” game…and that the tail is wagging the dog. The sheer pitchforked panic and negative outpouring on the fan/local media side is palpable. It may not have created–but it fuels the perception that this is a “dumpster fire.” Someone utters that, and it’s repeated, and the mantra gets retweeted and there is a swirl of negative perception that spreads out and out. Some fans are somehow getting off on the idea that we’re complete failures with no hope, fueled by the above perception. It’s a vicious cycle. Yep, winning cures all of that–but man, you can’t tell me the negative energy we as a whole are pouring into the press doesn’t feed this “perception.” And you can’t tell me it’s not in some part a turn off to coaches and players who could potentially come here.
gase bailed before 1 question was asked, he wouldn’t even take the first interview to hear more about the opportunity/vision or the very least learn from the experience as he’s more than likely going to be considered for future opportunities. mcdaniels at least took the time to hear about the job before deciding he didn’t want it. not a good look. i’m experiencing a bit of shadenfreude with this leadership team even though i love the team. oddly conflicted…
Once again leading to the question of “How does a team with obvious weaknesses in need of a significant talent infusion at a critical position decide to draft a specialist player in the top ten picks?” The answer, of course, is because the Browns. Or the Cavaliers.
…
if chud was such a good coach then why hasn’t he found work yet?
I disagree. Pass rush specialist is a real position of need in today’s NFL and worthy of a top10 pick (if you get it right). Aldon Smith was nothing more than a pass rush specialist his rookie year. Same with DeMarcus Ware.
They either used Mingo wrong (I hope) or he’s not as good at pass rushing as they expected. Now, if they were planning/hoping on Mingo, then they should have gotten a CB instead of Groves in FA. But, that’s another story.
It’s hard to get up and pound the asphalt with all that money weighing you down.
\
And those reasons are . . .?
I believe they didn’t have permission to interview until Monday or Tuesday.
Let’s list out the process thus far. Please help me out if I missed anyone. I am trying to keep the list to people we have actually interviewed thus far but the 3 bigger rumors I put on there too.
never really in the running
Stoops – seemingly used us as leverage to get raise. Not much smoke round quick up&down rumor.
Tressel – some smoke that he wanted an interview, but Browns never offered.
SF – Roman, Tomsula, Seely have popped up in rumors over the last month, but you’d think they would be mentioned this week if we were going to interview them.
Wanted out of the Running
McDaniels – interviewed, withdrew
Gase – requested interview, declined
Bowles – interviewed, withdrew
Malzahn – requested interview, never heard anything
McAdoo – interviewed, took job as Giants OC
Whisenhunt – interviewed, took job as Titans HC
Apparently, still in the running but not discussed much
Rich Bisaccia – we apparently interviewed him, then he disappeared from rumors.
Still in running and discussed
Munchak – interviewed
Koetter? – may be interviewed?
Quinn – interviewed once, waiting on 2nd interview
Vettine – interviewed 2X, likely the favorite currently
One huge difference the 49ers had much more talent around Aldon Smith then do the Browns with Mingo. You don’t draft a “pass rush specialist” when you need linebackers, another corner and a safety. And I’ll gladly debate anyone who thinks Mingo is a “pass rush specialist” because for me he’s not. He’s a tweener he’s not a linebacker and he’s not a defensive end. Which means he basically can only play in a 3-4 where he can JUST rush the passer.
I agree that having a pass rush specialist is nice. But a linebacker who doesn’t rack up his tackle numbers 8 yards from the LOS seemed like a more important piece. Or a corner who doesn’t spend the majority of the week leading up to the game in the burn unit following his performance in the previous game. I know that no draft pick is a lock to succeed, but I’d rather see those rather gaping holes be plugged before we go for a situational guy. The Niners can afford a luxury project type. The Browns cannot.
mingo is a better linebacker and pass rusher than Lawrence taylor
we don’t have their new cell phone number
Completely agree that winning games is the most important outcome here. And, I’m happy to lose January press releases if we end up hiring the guy to figure that part out. Even if perception is reality and that guy happens to be the FO’s 10th choice (as long as he wins, who cares where he was on the initial list — if there even was an initial ranked list).
“Too much gloom and doom.” after 14 years and all of the mistakes all I can say is, really?
you think Jake Locker is going to be a Superbowl QB?
“As if it matters how a team looks in the offseason?!”
“When the offseason is all there is, it matters a great deal”
Easy there Mike Lombardi.
Of course not! I mean, is he even entering the draft this year?
Sadly, it’s not. Our YPC rush defense was fantastic last year. Cannot complain about it. Yes, Robertson was especially terrible in pass coverage and it’d have been nice to have him replaced, but you can find that later in the draft (our fault for not trying). When you are in the top10, go and get the hard to find skills like pass rusher.
When the 49ers drafted Aldon Smith, they could not afford the luxury. He afforded them the luxury by being good (which helps the secondary and everybody else).
This team doesn’t look any better in the off-season!
how about mike junkin…can mingo be better than mike junkin?
The process:
1. Throw sh*t at wall.
2. Hire what sticks.
worked for auburn
49ers had a mediocre defense and went 6-10 the year before they drafted Aldon (and hired Harbaugh). He helps make that defense go (just look at how much better they were with him this year too).
did we need help rushing the passer? heck yeah. we weren’t very good last year (and part of that is that Mingo didn’t get there). I find fault in that Mingo didn’t get to the QB. I don’t find fault in them seeing that pass rush was a big need.
The newest regime is bearing the brunt of 14 years of nothing but past failures. Couple that with what happened in their first major coaching search and it only makes sense why so many people feel the way they do. If you don’t it’s either because you are a complete homer or maybe you don’t really care as much as the people who this kind of stuff bothers.
I thought that was their drafting strategy the past 14 years too!
“`
yes, but he Fausto’d his name and is going by Keith Price this time around.
Actual photo of Chud’s new daily routine:
(Not sure why he has a tool belt . . .)
We’ve evolved to Bannermetrics.