While We’re Waiting… Anderson Varejao the key for Cavs
October 25, 2013Carlos Hyde, Destroyer of Spirits
October 25, 2013Paul Hoynes of The Cleveland Plain Dealer echoes recent sentiments at WFNY, stating that there is “no chance” that the Cleveland Indians will offer starting pitcher Ubaldo Jiménez a multi-year contract this offseason. This news comes in the wake of the San Francisco Giants setting the bar for free agent starting pitchers by inking Tim Lincecum to a two-year, $35 million deal earlier this week.
On Thursday, our own TD explained that if the deal provided to Lincecum, a pitcher who is far removed from his back-to-back Cy Young seasons, is used as a measuring stick, there is little to no chance that the Indians can afford to pay two pitchers who performed much better over the course of the 2013 season.
“After watching him carry the rotation down the stretch coupled with his AL-best 1.71 post-All Star break ERA, I have carried no illusions that Ubaldo would return to Cleveland,” said TD. “Go ahead and tender him the $13 million one year offer, watch him decline it, and take your first round draft pick as compensation.”
The deadline for the Indians to make such an offer to Jiménez is 5 p.m. ET on the fifth day after the final game of the World Series. Jiménez would then have seven days to accept or decline. If he accepts, he’ll stay with the Indians on a one-year deal worth $14 million—a calculated risk that the Indians would have to stomach if executed by the player. If he signs with another team, the Indians would then receive a draft pick at the end of the first round in 2014.
If anything, this deal shows that the cost of even mediocre pitching will be higher than the $8 million player option that Jiménez will soon turn down. The Tribe could very well find themselves trying to find lighting in a bottle once again, doing so through low-cost avenues as they did with Scott Kazmir a season ago. If this plays out as expected, two of the Indians’ best four pitchers in 2013—as measured by WAR—will be playing for different teams in 2014.
[Related: Brian Sabean messed it up for the rest of us]
148 Comments
I haven’t looked at his numbers enough from the end of this season to guess if the results were an abnormality or not. Have to imagine a soft schedule helped his performance a lot. Can’t overpay a guy like that. I think if we let him walk, we really don’t regret it.
Imagine the club these guys could put together if they drafted well too.
Much like Tristan Thompson’s improved play last year the Dolan’s have shut me up with the notion they are cheap. To their credit they did spend the problem is a one time infusion wasn’t/isn’t enough. They need another winter of spending IMO in order to take the next step. They also need Antonetti to make the right decisions on not only Ubaldo but Kazmir, Masterson, Smith, Perez, Cabrera, Chisenhall and Stubbs. That’s contracts as well as trades/replacements.
True. And if we trace the fickle-fan history on that one, it goes something like:
2009: How could we trade Victor Martinez for a prospect?
2011: Justin Masterson is our ace!
2012: You suck Masterson!
2013: Justin Masterson is the best!
2015: How could we trade Justin Masterson for prospects?
No idea I just wish Asdrubal Cabrera was playing SS for St. Louis! 😉
Did I miss something? Did the Jacobs lose money on the Indians or make money? And they did not use that money to invest in Born and Swisher. Look at the 2012 payroll and 2013 payroll. They simply used other money to pay those players (Sizemore, Hafner etc). There was no huge payroll increase after the TV deal
Well this is how TB and Oakland have been able to compete with the big boys. I think the Indians drafting is improving the problem is these guys are so young it takes 4-5 years before they ever blossom.
This is true but at least they didn’t stick it in their pockets and stroll away.
Payroll increased by $15M, that’s like a 25% increase.
This is the part where you say “that’s not huge enough!”
Although to be honest Pomeranz/White WAS selling the farm at the time. It just turned out that they didn’t pan out after all. But all in all we should have got more value for that trade. Half of the majors wanted those 2 at the time and we got zero value (until this year) back for them
LOL. Any proof that “half of the majors wanted those 2”?
Except Ubaldo actually was good at one point in his career. Tomlin NEVER was. His “Good” year was still and ERA over 4 (if I remember correctly I’m not going to check the stats right now)
Actually, if you look at the A’s position players, almost none of them are guys they drafted. They’ve found a LOT of value in free agency. (Of course, you can do that when you’re drafting and developing amazing pitching.)
Alright fair enough. I’ve just seen so many ppl say how much Tomlin will help this team and I think they’re nuts and starting to get tired of it. Noone will replace what Ubaldo did the 2nd half of last year (not saying he’d do it again either, just saying neither will anyone else we have)
Fair enough. Saying Tomlin = Jimenez is definitely wrong. But I think Sham’s point was that we have other cheaper pitching options to fill out the starting rotation, not that Tomlin was going to step in as our #2 (more likely our #5, which would be great too).
You are fired up today huh? It’s Friday, c’mon man!
As far as Masterson goes he’s never been a favorite of mine. Personally I think his performance from year to year is almost as sketchy as Ubaldo heck sometimes even in the same season. He’s not an ace he’s a nice #2 or #3 IMO. That being said he’s far more valuable to a team like Cleveland who lacks SP then say either Boston or St. Louis.
It’s going to be interesting to see how it plays out. If I’m the Indians after deciding what to do with Ubaldo/Kazmir discussions with Masterson on an extension/new deal would be a top priority.
Very true Jed Lowrie – damn, Josh Donaldson – double damn, Coco Crisp – never dreamt he’d be relevant still.
As it turned out the Indians got lucky pawning them off on poor Colorado because if anything those two showed just how deficient the Indians drafting really was!
That’s what she said last night!
Yes – Tomlin = option
No – Tomlin = answer.
Actually you are misinformed. Indians payroll in 99 was $73M. FOURTH HIGHEST IN MLB. By 2011 we were fifth lowest. Enough said
http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/teams/payrolls.asp?T=9&Page=Team
Two sources by the way
No it didn’t. It went from $78M to $82M. Where are you getting this info?
I am fired up! World Series! Friday! Baseball talk!
I agree on Masterson. I’ve never been all that high on him though I’ve been pleasantly surprised. IMO, he’s not the kind of guy you build around, but for us we may have to since if we ever had a Verlander type there’d be no way we could afford him.
unfortunately, things have changed and the sources of money have gone from mostly at the gate to mostly from local TV deals. Cleveland cannot generate the same revenue that NY, Boston, LA, etc. can generate.
the LA Angels payrolls is paid completely from their TV deal. the Indians payrolls is not. this despite the huge disparity between their respective payrolls.
I’m still not a “look at the opponent” person but completely agree with your last sentence. The Indians need to show that they made an effort to bring him back but the risk of what he wanted was to high. I think most rational Indians fans could live with that scenario.
And the big roll of the dice on Cespedes too.
it’s “opening day” payroll from Cot’s:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/american-league/cleveland-indians/
No nothing concrete. But I vividly remember all the trade rumors (some of which are false I know) and all the sports shows talking about how they were both “hot commodities.” I don’t have anything to back it up but I do remember it quite clearly
Do you also see a connection between the Indians not overpaying Jimenez and still being able to build a team that is in contention?
At some point, people have to get over what happened in the past, and enjoy the present if its worth enjoying.
also, looking at your sites, they say we paid Derek Lowe $15mil. that is not true. we paid him $5mil and Atlanta paid the other $10mil.
Cot’s is a better more accurate website.
Nothing I said was wrong.
For the majority of the 90’s, ownership spending was in line (once adjusted for inflation) with what the Dolan’s spending especially when you factor in increased revenue thanks to all those sell-outs spurred on by bandwagon fans who love winning but don’t care for baseball.
Got it. But why do I care if they signed someone else after opening day to make up the difference. But thanks for the info!
Ah okay well I’m a little deflated after last night I thought when it was 2-1 the mighty BoSox had ’em right where we wanted ’em but those Cardinals are tough. Pesky and no not Johnny either!
If the Indians could get Masterson to come back with a reasonable deal between him, Kluber, McAllister and Salazar you have a rotation. I’m choosing Kazmir over Ubaldo because not only do I prefer having a south paw in the rotation but I just like the story of redemption for Kazmir so much more. Of course just like Ubaldo the deal has to make sense for the Indians but honestly I’d give him $16M for two years easy. I might go as high as $20M for 2 years but that depends on what else I’m trying to do.
Completely disagree with NOT offering Ubaldo a MULTI year deal that fits us and here’s why:
1. I’m not convinced Ubaldo is chasing money to become the centerpiece of another club. His head is his biggest enemy and if he’s comfortable here with Calloway he may turn down the extra $ to simply fit in behind Masterson.
2. By not at least offering him a MULTI year deal you are comfortable in you continue to show your own players as well as prospective free agents their window here is very short.
3. You show the fans you put an offer on the table and he balked, you did what you could but the player declined. Fair enough.
4. Tigers just lost Leyland and showed their BP is their weakness. They are not invincible and it will take solid starting pitching to hold them in check long enough to get to their bullpen.
that’s the tricky thing. it’s hard to factor in trades, etc. and I haven’t found a good website that tracks “actual” paid payroll.
opening day at least shows what they planned on spending heading into a season. it’s the best of the flawed info out there.
Yea true but those ex-Cuban players seem to be money these days. Lets hope the White Sox didn’t continue that trend.
All I’m saying is in terms of national publications, Pomz was at best ranked a #20-30 prospect. White was like #50-60. Well regarded, but hardly the can’t miss guys that every teams is dying for.
Cot’s baseball contracts…
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/american-league/cleveland-indians/
Ah, you are ahead of me…
You purposefully left off 2000-2002, which while Dolan owned the team those payrolls were more a product of the Jacobs years, just to make your average work better to suit your argument. Add those years and your at $64M.
I’m putting you on warning.
I’m pretty convinced that part of the fan malaise toward the Indians is due in no small part to the likes of Hoynes and Ocker. The other beat writers in town may not be much better, but, unlike those two, they seem to enjoy their job, and following the local team, and can spit out a positive story every once in a while about a couple teams that have been truly awful for the last few years. But when the Indians don’t want to overpay for Jimenez, Hoynes passes off his opinion as fact (check the article again, there’s no sourcing there), and look at all the negative emotions that have followed.
The razors edge is where I live baby besides she wasn’t your girl, I think! 😉
So Dolan paid a lot of money to try to win, but that still gets credited to Jacobs? There is no shame in Dolan-hating.
I’m not purposefully doing anything, just listing the years when Dolan owned the team.
Look, you said Dolan could spend more, but won’t. If that was truly the case then why didn’t he commit a fire sale in 2000 to clear those salaries? Your own evidence goes against your original point.
Sunny day: Thank you, Mr. Jacobs.
Here comes a cloud: DOLAN!!!!! *fist shake at the sky*
I still like Hoynes but honestly you can only cover these Cleveland teams for so long before opinion becomes fact and watching their play begins to cloud your judgment. I think this is what did in Grossi. I know many people on here have worn me out to the point I became far to combative over a subject that is just really a hobby/entertainment.
I did notice the complete lack of sourcing. That’s pretty much standard operating procedure for the PD’s sportswriters now.
I disagree with #1. He may not be looking to draw every last dollar he can out of a team, but he was pretty clearly upset about his first extension with the Rockies, and how they offered big money to both Tulo and CarGo, but not him. Maybe he’s changed, but money has been a pretty big deal to him.
I guess your dad and grandpa are ok well that’s if they do something this winter too!