Debating Chris Perez’s closer role â Cleveland Indians Roundtable
September 25, 2013NCAAF News: Guiton and Miller listed as co-starters for Wisconsin game
September 25, 2013Last week before the attention turned from Brian Hoyer and onto the trade of Trent Richardson, head coach Rob Chudzinski was non-committal about who would be the starting quarterback once Brandon Weeden returned from his injury.
This week, Rob Chudzinski named Hoyer the starter for the second week in a row while ruling Weeden out of the game with his sprained thumb. That was a veteran move by a rookie head coach.
Hoyer played well in his first start, but wasn’t without his mistakes. His first half was really good, completing 14 of 23 passes (61%) for two touchdowns and an interception. The Browns had 12 first downs in the half and were 3 of 7 on third down conversions. They scored every time they were in the red zone and scored 24 first half points. This after scoring 16 points total in their first two games.
The second half wasn’t as good. Hoyer was 16 of 31 (52%) in the second half with 147 yards, one touchdown and two interceptions. He was very good on the go ahead touchdown drive though.
Hoyer’s play on Sunday might have been enough to earn him another chance this Sunday against the Bengals, but it really doesn’t matter once Chudzinski ruled Weeden out for the game. As Chudzinski said last week, Hoyer gives them the best chance to win the game on Sunday. It doesn’t matter if he has the title of “starting quarterback” or even “franchise quarterback”. That pressure just doesn’t exist because Hoyer is making a spot start.
He’ll likely make another one next Thursday night against the Buffalo Bills.
Brandon Weeden hasn’t thrown a football yet since his injury against the Ravens. Chudzinzki said that he will attempt to throw at some point this week, but didn’t know when.
Whether or not Brian Hoyer plays well against the Bengals, I would have a hard time believing that Brandon Weeden will be back under center for the Browns in that Thursday night game. And that works out well for Rob Chudzinski.
Chudzinski has the luxury of not labeling anyone THE starter. If Hoyer plays well against the Bengals and Bills, then Chud could give him that role, which of course will always create some kind of controversy or animosity. It always does when a starter loses his job, but especially the quarterback.
If Hoyer does not play well over the next two games, then Chudzinski can go back to Weeden without there being a problem since Weeden is the starter returning from an injury.
Is three starts enough to know what the team has in Brian Hoyer? I would say probably it is. For one thing, it isn’t just those three games. It’s the body of work before the season began. It’s the time spent in practice sessions and film studies. It’s the preseason games. All of it adds up to a pretty good snapshot.
The problem will come if Hoyer looks average. Let me rephrase that. The problem will come if Hoyer looks average by Cleveland Browns quarterback standards. (There is a difference, isn’t there?) Then Rob Chudzinski will have to make some sort of determination.
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In the meantime, Brain Hoyer continues to live out the dream. This week will be his first start at home in Cleveland. Hoyer said he is looking forward to the opportunity to be introduced in front of his home town friends and family. The St. Ignatius grad and North Olmsted native grew up a Browns fan and said on Wednesday that he used to go to games with his father who had season tickets at old Municipal Stadium behind a post. Hoyer said he admired Bernie Kosar when he was a kid, and joked about watching Eric Metcalf run up the middle.
Standing there watching Hoyer answer questions and joke about the Metcalf teams, you couldn’t help but think that this guy is really ‘one of us’. Which makes it really easy to root for him.
Like all Cleveland athletes though, whether we continue to cheer for him has more to do with his performance on the field and less about the proximity to it from his childhood home.
Let’s face it, if the Browns had a winning quarterback from Sri Lanka we wouldn’t care.
61 Comments
I’m not for a minute sold on the kid, but it is definitely easy to root for the guy. There’s something even in that photo of him in his Browns gear that is different than shots of other guys. When other players wear Browns gear, they look like they’re either wearing the chosen uniform of their employer or doing some promotion. Hoyer just looks like a fan. I mean, who wears both the hat AND the sweatshirt? That could be a picture of him in the mall when he was 13. There’s something genuinely Kosar-esque about his love for this team. Sure, Frye and “Dreamboat” Quinn claimed to be fans (who am I to judge?), but even they never really looked like it. This guy, though. This guy . . . I like this guy. (Gruden’d)
My big concern (which I think is legitimate given that it’s two home games, one against the Bills) is that he plays mediocre football while the Browns win (though I’d still prefer that over losing!), causing a clamoring for him to be The Starter when he’s really not that great. That’s what happened this past week: 54 passes to get 329 yards, two absolutely horrid INTs (the third was an Oniel Cousins whiff on helping Alex Mack), and horrible QB play most of the second half after the Vikings had some time to look at some photos. Heck, when looking at the film (Game Rewind is as awesome as RedZone, btw), any decent QB should have known that the S and LB are sitting back in zone for those two INTs because there was literally nowhere else for them to have been and nobody to cover. That’s really troubling to me.
And again, I do believe Weeden is better than people think and that the with/without Josh Gordon splits show how important it is to have a bona fide WR on the field, as we saw with the constant man-to-man D the Ravens played. If nobody can get open, your QB looks bad; couple that with poor blocking and it’s a disaster. Case in point: Which is Weeden and which is Tom Brady (and his horrible WR/OL) this year:
54.7%, 258ypg, 6.0ypa, 7 cmpl. 20+, 1 of 40+
57.5%, 232ypg, 5.5ypa, 6 cmpl. 20+, 0 of 40+
Let’s get Weeden on the field with Josh Gordon (and Shaun Lavauo!) and see what he can really do.
I also think that that’s why Chud is playing this wisely, as stated in the post: Hoyer is not that great, but let’s let people see that over a body of work so we don’t have a QB dilemma all year while we allow Weeden to really heal up.
One difference: I would expect them to start Weeden against BUF, which has played no real WR threats (sorry, Steve Smith is average) and yet has allowed 5 plays of 40+ yards (none to Smith, and next worst in NFL is 3) so fans/opponents will see that the Weeden-Gordon connection is a good one.
I am definitely am rooting for him to succeed (while remaining a bit skeptical as well).
I love that our logo…is no logo, just the blank helmet on a t-shirt. Though I do love the old school Elf and wish it would make a comeback on official game gear, even if it was on just coats or player jackets when it’s 10 below zero.
hey…HEY!!!!! We got browns QB talk going on ova here! Put down the bats and mitts …
Rick, better warm up the film room – looks like we have a situation.
The Cleveland obsession with labels like “The Starter” or “Franchise Quarterback” drives me insane.
We are all smart enough to see and understand what’s going on with Hoyer and Weeden right now, but until Chud names “The Starter”, sports radio and Mary Kay are going to lose their minds.
Bottom line is…Lombardi likes Hoyer. Always has.
So, as long as Hoyer doesn’t step on his dick, Weeden’s days as a Brown are numbered.
Yo, did someone say Situation?
http://www.mtv.com/onair/jersey_shore/photos/cast/mike_0644.jpg
Hey you speak for yourself son I for one am smart enough to know there is no franchise QB on the roster. Furthermore go back to draft night in here and you’ll see how I felt about Weeden.
I try not to step either but it’s hard!
Oh – I certainly didn’t mean I think Weeden is a “Franchise QB.” Just that people are so anxious to slap these labels onto things that they’re like a puppy who pees on the floor b/c it’s too excited.
Ah gotcha Gentle Ben it’s all good but don’t blame my puppy brother Steve for making a piddle when he gets excited, he can’t help it!!!!!
Weeden was on the field with Josh Gordon all of last year, and Weeden’s performance regressed over the season. I am not sure why you think Weeden will all of sudden be better because Gordon is back. Is there some statistical basis to your argument that Weeden will do better with Gordon? It would be interesting to see.
I do agree, though, that Hoyer has a lot to prove. Which is why I would rather see him get reps than Weeden. Weeden’s regression after Indy last year and his slow decision-making this year have convinced me he is not quick enough to be an NFL QB.
As for your Brady comparison, if you show the number of INTs, I am pretty sure I will immediately know which one is Weeds.
Very easy to cheer for, agreed. Here’s to hoping the dream of not having to use one of our 1st rounders on a QB next year. Can you imagine by some miracle if Hoyer convinces us he’s the guy to move forward with, and we use our first rounders on another CB1 to pair with Haden, and another WR1 to pair with Gordon, then grab an OG in the 2nd? Yowzers.
’12 Weeden wk5-15:
207/350 59% 2388yds 6.8YPA 11TD 10INT
Weeden w/o Gordon starting or playing:
137/253 54% 1513yds 5.9YPA 4TD 10INT
note: that does include the infamous wk1 disaster in the bottom numbers. still think that’s a bit unfair to Weeden as he has never been THAT bad again. Regardless, Weeden is better when he has our best WR.
Honestly, I’d be happy if we can find out the Hoyer is “good enough” for the next year or two (i.e., what Weeden’s supposed to be) so we can do what you suggest. I just don’t think the answer at QB is in this draft, and I’d rather get some other starters on the roster in the interim.
Looks like mgbode beat me to it. That’s pretty much my basis. Those are pretty good rookie numbers with Gordon. I’m not saying he’s our franchise QB but he’s certainly worth using this year if not next.
OK. I see that he is slightly better with Gordon, but his level of play with Gordon is still very mediocre. So its not like Weeden will all of sudden jump to an elite level if he is reunited with Gordo.
Also, his “with Gordon” numbers are remarkably inconsistent. For example, if you focus on Weeks 8-15 he is 143/245, 58%, 1,602, 6.5 YPA 5TD and 7 INT. That is not good QB play, and it is particularly unnerving that he got worse over time. Especially his INT issues.
I have my doubts about Hoyer, but given that he is 2 years younger than Weeds I would rather see him get snaps than Weeds. I am 99% sure Weeds is not the answer. Hoyer is unlikely the answer, but at least he offers more hope in the short-run.
I know he has looked uninterested and even lazy on some plays, but one of my fears is the the Steelers continue to suck this year, and end up in position to draft Clowney. Then have Jones and Clowney terrorizing us for the next 5-10 years.
I would never put it past a Browns quarterback to do exactly that.
Fear the Elf!
wks 8-15 sure look alot like Hoyer’s vs. Minny (and that as a bad pass defense thus far).
which is why I don’t get why Hoyer offers more hope in the short-run? his stats basically match up with Weeden (given that he had Gordon and not even considering the bad pass defense). they are all mediocre to bad no matter how you slice it so far.
IMO, if the answer at QB isn’t in this draft, then we are going to be bad for awhile longer because he’s likely not to be in the next couple either (unless a couple guys very unexpectedly decide to stay in school).
now, we may not choose the correct answer at QB, but that’s a different issue entirely.
I like the guy, but don’t believe that he is the QB of the future. I do think that he looked more natural than Weeden ever did, and I think it took seeing another guy step in for me to let go of the Weeden pipe dream.
I’ll cheer hard for Hoyer for the rest of the year, and next year will welcome the future QB we get in the draft.
Touche’.
He is a local and native that always has wanted to be a Brown. root for Hoyer and who knows maybe the magic can return. All I know if they bring weedhead back in the cheers will turn to tears and gloomy gus will once again come from rickety rick rick land.I have seen a lot of hem but I do believe, he has magic in his arm and can take the browns at least back to respectability. Screw ESPN and all of the talking heads. Do our talking on the field, bring back smash mouth football not some ESPN big mouth that seems to think he even knows how to do anything except start rumors. face it the rest of the league does not respect the fans, the city or my Brownies. Light em up kid and bring back the magic. Ladies and gentleman I give you the Kardiac Kids-the Sequel
Lets see there is only one stat that really matters. that is how many victories. if the coaches had split up the reps with the starters been the two real QB and Weedhead, they would have seen which one came out on top. But instead they gave 90% or better of the reps with the starters to Weedhead and we got what in return our peepees wacked off by the Colts and the first two losses of the season when it really counted. give Hoyer two more starts with the starters then come and tell me why Weedhead has not been released.
who are you to say that haha someone who is “smart enough”. did you know what round Tom Brady was picked in? And do you also recall no one remembering who Aaron Rodgers was who sat on the bench behind Favre. He has the weapons and he also showed things that good pro QB’s do. do you think the answer is to draft some big headed kid and start him because that has showed it has not worked for past 15 years. i am not saying Hoyer is going to become some superstar but maybe he could be a guy like Romo who gets wins for us for a couple years to let a draft pick kid to get seasoned. also Hoyer did get to sit behind Brady for a couple years and take some good notes. Plus for a kid who threw three interceptions he still drove us down the field to win the game thats something you can not teach or dictate with some kid from college. I do respect your opinion but i disagree with how you say your basically an expert. just saying give the kid a chance there is no reason he deserves criticism yet he is 1-0 there for he is most winning Qb we have had in 15 years.
you guys are criticizing the wrong things he showed poise and he was quick to forget the picks he threw and still next drive threw the ball with confidence and never hung his head that is the most important thing you need in a qb. with that being said 2 of those picks were horrid but again he has only played 2 games in his entire career. plus you are all forgetting who he sat behind for the years that he was with the patriots. Hoyer has the most potential than any other guy we have had in the past regardless of his resume. not saying hes the answer just realize he has good things to offer and could possibly be a fix for a couple years.
one more thing why are you guys so hung up on drafting a kid to be the “franchise”quarterback lol whats going to change from weeden or mccoy or tim couch its all the same. andrew luck is a freak of nature that isnt going to happen for us we need someone with years to sit behind somone. just saying the best things happen unplanned like colin kaepernick. you need to refresh your memory on the history of the league and think of more busts of draft picks who were thought to be the next franchise qb too.
Does no one else see the Derek Anderson in this guy?
Great points. To hear the other players and Chud talk about his natural leadership qualities and poise is also big to me. Especially Gordon’s comments about his presence in the huddle and in the pocket. You are dead on about the “unexpected” answers that teams find. Is Hoyer the answer? I don’t know, and not saying he is, but I agree with you that he has as good of a chance as anybody else we have put out there in the past 10 years…..so why can’t he become the answer?
He has done one thing though that Weeden never has done….lead us to a TD when it mattered most late in a game. Aren’t there things we should look at beyond stats, like the ability he had to make a play when the game was on the line? He struggled terribly in the second half – then hits Gordon on 3rd down to get the drive rolling…..and on the TD pass to Cameron a bunch of great things happened….
On first and goal, his first pass was thrown away. On 2nd down, he threw it away again. On 3rd down – with 55 seconds left, down by three, I was totally expecting us to run a draw, force Minny to use their timeout and tie the game. Instead we went for the win, so credit the coaches, but Hoyer called a hot route for Cameron for the score. He makes pre-snap changes a lot more than Weeden, and he anticipates a whole lot better which in turn leads to his “quick throws” that everyone keeps talking about. Weeden’s inability to do this yet is something that stats listed above cannot show. So while statistically he may not be heads and shoulders above, when it comes to those intangibles he his light years above.
if W/L is all that mattered we should have dumped our QBs for Tebow & VY in the offseason. they have great records.
and sorry man, but Colt isn’t coming back.
especially in football, there are plenty of things to look beyond stats. i’m not going to let myself get completely fooled by 1 drive though.
Against 2012 playoff teams:
Weeden came through much bigger than this game against Cinci with 21 4th quarter points. Weeden marched the team down the field against the Ravens for a potential tie, but did mess up on the final play. Weeden hit Gordon on the hands vs. Indy who dropped the ball.
None of this is saying that Weeden is “the answer.” It’s just that people are making WAAAAYYYYY too much from a mediocre game we happened to win against an 0-3 team. I personally don’t think either QB is the answer.
No. One or the other is the answer. Make your pick and then bet your house on it.
But, my mortgage is already tied to the Hundley bandwagon đ
But nothing else really matters. I have been a fan for a long time and Hoyer has the best chance to lead the Browns maybe not to the playoffs but back to be respectable. I was a Colt fan but not because he was great QB, but he was a gamer. He was not afraid to suit up and get his game on for the Steelers. In my book any player that is not in the ER or ICU and does not suit up for the Steelers needs to go down the road. Enough of knocking on the door, it is I time for the Browns to knock the league on its keister.
but, that was Colt in wk17 last year. he was injured and we started Thad Lewis because Weeden was hurt too. Weeden is 1-0 vs. Pitt.
and, “gamer” is just another word for cruddy QB who has a good team around him. that’s not good enough for me. I want the QB situation fixed.
Maybe Hoyer improves from his game1 performance and continues to improve. I am not leaving this possibility out. It’s just that we saw Minny adjust to Hoyer, and then he struggled until that final drive (and thank him for that final drive).
I am not claiming Hoyer is the guy either….I want him to be. But….that’s the biggest thing in all of this – he made the play when it mattered. Was he bad in the second half against Minnesota? Yes. Did he make awful interceptions? Yes. Did he make a play when it counted? Yes.
That’s what Weeden doesn’t do. He doesn’t make a play when you need it. In the examples you gave above about Weeden – for whatever reason he didn’t complete it. Yes he found Gordon open vs Indy, yes he led us down vs. Baltimore, but the bottom line is the play failed. Drops, bad reads, tipped passes, penalties, bad play calling, I know there are lots of things that can happen that maybe out of a QBs hands, but the NFL is a bottom line business – and the bottom line is that Weeden is not completing the task.
Hoyer, in his one opportunity dealt with the same issues. Poor pass blocking on the right side, Gordon losing track of where he was on a huge 3rd pass, tipped pass for an interception, no running game, etc….but the bottom line is that he completed the task in the end.
Far too often Weeden has failed to make a play when things go bad. Things happen out of your control in football – there are 22 guys out there running around…..not everything is going to work right…..question is, can you make the play when things don’t work right. Weeden has not. Hoyer did in his one opportunity. That’s the basis of me washing my hands from Weeden, and embracing/hoping Hoyer can continue.
exactly im not saying he is either but he does have the keys where he possibly could and most people are blind to that because we didnt draft him in the first round of a draft haha.
once a player hits the field, where he was drafted means little. it’s what he does on the field that matters. Hoyer did some good things, some terrible things. overall it was mediocre. I hope he improves this week.
One other thing on Hoyer: I agree with mbbode that his aggregate stat line was “Weedenesque.” BUT, if you watched the game, the guy ran the offense crisply for 3 out of 4 quarters in a way Weeden never has. If he can continue to do that while eliminating the major mistakes he made, he will surpass Weeden quickly. Even Brady and Rodgers have slow patches during the game, but they don’t make big INTs.
From what I see, if Hoyer can eliminate just a handful of throws, he has a real chance to be effective. I have seen enough of Weeds to know that he can’t eliminate his weaknesses. He has played a lot of games and has shown no clear trajectory of “learning” or “improving.” I wanna learn more about Hoyer’s upside, and whether he can improve over the course of 3 to 4 games.
the only top10 QB we have drafted since ’99 was Tim Couch and that was for an expansion team. yes, there are plenty of busts too, but the odds are much higher to get your QB there.
that’s more fair. weeden has had time to adjust and I was very disappointed to the start of this season (even adjusting for the lack of Gordon). I am also open to changing my mind on Hoyer. I hope he shuts me the hell up this weekend.
i agree just saying he has some qualities that browns Qb’s haven’t had in awhile so we will see haha
I don’t mean to keep harping on it….but I just don’t agree with you when you say “mediocre”. Statistically speaking yes he was….but it goes back to the whole, “stats don’t tell the whole story” mentality. He overcame a terrible second half where the Vikings made adjustments to him like you mentioned, and yet in the end, he beat their adjustments and drove his team down the field in the closing minute to win the game. He made two HUGE 3rd down throws in that drive as well, with the second one, the TD pass, being a thing of absolute beauty when you look at the touch and accuracy on it.
I just can’t agree that when a QB making his first start of the season, on the road, orchestrates a game-winning TD drive with under a minute to play can be called “mediocre” in any context of the word.
http://content.internetvideoarchive.com/content/photos/7071/29699509_.jpg
Check yoself before you wreck yoself son and please save the condemnation card while your at it! Firstly I never said I was an expert. Sexpert on the other hand possibly. Secondly hello, I’m a Patriots fan. Thirdly it’s called sarcasm. You clearly did not get it but I’m sure Ben did which is all that matters since I was responding to him and not you.
Thank you for playing and have a nice day!
Glad ya found a friend!