The culture and roster have changed, so what’s the Tribe’s next move?
January 8, 2013Saban to NFL, Browns: Thanks, but no thanks
January 8, 2013Sometimes you think you know something. And then someone really smart says something that challenges what you think you know, and it makes you look at the subject from an entirely different point of view. And when the context changes, you can sometimes be surprised at what you learn.
I love the WFNY Podcasts that Craig is doing, and by far my two favorite episodes have been the two Brian Spaeth conversations. I don’t know Brian, save for a few Twitter interactions and one email interaction in which he sent me a promotional copy of his movie “Who Shot Mamba?” (which is genuinely funny and really stupid at the same time…it’s great). But I follow him on Twitter and read his website. He has a lot of interesting things to say and generally looks at things from a perspective different from my own.
But what I really remember the most about Brian is his old sports blog, Yay Sports!. Yes, a long time ago (in internet time) Brian wrote this really great basketball blog and I vividly remember reading it, laughing a lot, thinking about basketball from a different perspective, and just being happy that this guy was a fellow Cavs fan.
Anyway, what I’m getting at here is that while I know Brian and sports are going through a trial separation these days, I still really respect his opinion on sports and when he says something that offers an opinion that differs from my own, it’s going to make me at least consider it.
In this last WFNY Podcast, the subject of the Cavaliers came up, and Brian said something to the effect of “Look at the Cavs. Yeah, the Cavs are going about it the right way, regarding how the NBA works and how you have to operate to go from the bottom to the top. But the fact is, because Tristan Thompson is not a star and Dion Waiters is not a star, this rebuild is already blown. It’s over. It’s done. It’s blown.” After some back and forth with Craig on this subject, Brian mentioned that while he wants the rebuild to work, “I don’t have the energy to waste on hoping for things that aren’t realistic.”
Ouch. This is not exactly a fun prospect to even be considering. But this did make me think about it. If context is everything, my relative truth about the Cavaliers may not be the absolute truth at all. Maybe my hope for success for this franchise is impairing my ability to perceive the harsh truth that the Cavaliers have one good basketball player on this team right now.
Perhaps. Or maybe it’s just bad timing. I was listening to the podcast on my way into work this morning and it was coming on the heels of that embarrassment of a basketball game that occurred last night. This is a frustrating time for all of us Cavalier fans. But just as we should be careful of letting our desire for success cloud our vision, so too must we take caution to not let the frustration and growing pains of a developing team ruin our outlook for the future.
Here’s what I know. It’s really, really, really hard to get a superstar in the NBA. It’s even harder to keep them longer than 7 years. The Cavaliers have a superstar in Kyrie Irving. They have his rights until 2014/15. They hold his qualifying offer for the next year, meaning he will be a restricted free agent. Which means worst case scenario they have him for that year. So essentially, after this year we can only feel reasonably certain that Kyrie will be a Cavalier for 3 years after this one.
So is that enough time to convince Irving to stay? Should we feel reasonably assured that the team is on the right path? That’s a tough question, primarily in a season in which the team looks this pathetic. I won’t rehash the numbers again. We all know it’s been remarkably bad. Poor offense, some of the worst defense we’ve ever seen in Cleveland, questionable coaching rotations, etc.
So yeah, it’s bad. Things look bleak. But does this mean the rebuild is done? Does this mean Kyrie’s era in Cleveland is already counting down in Cleveland? Or is this just the team hitting rock bottom before it begins its ascent? Is this simply the hard part of any rebuild?
I have a couple thoughts about this. Regarding Tristan Thompson, there is no doubt that Brian is correct that he’s not a star. I don’t see him ever being a star. But then again, neither is anyone drafted after him. Jonas Valanciunas, Jan Vesely, Bismack Biyombo, Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker, Jimmer Fredette, Klay Thompson, Alec Burks, Markieff Morris, Marcus Morris, Kawhi Leonard. Some of these are solid players, but none of them are stars. Had the Cavaliers drafted any of them, I don’t think the team’s fate would be any different today.
The one thing I do know is that since Anderson Varejao went down we’ve seen the best basketball out of Tristan in his career. He looks like he’s growing into the double-double machine the Cavaliers always believed he could be. He’s probably never going to be a star, never appear in an All-Star game, never make All-NBA teams. But if he can get a little more solid on defense and recognize when to help a little quicker, along with continue to post 12 points and 10 rebounds a night, I think the Cavaliers would be fine with that.
As for Waiters, I’m going to reserve judgment. Those who have been reading my posts here know how I feel about highly drafted SGs. They struggle to adapt more than any other position. These things take time, and I’m simply not ready to write off Dion Waiters. I honestly think he could still be a star if he learns to control his shot selection. The move to the bench has done wonders for Waiters in reeling in expectations a bit and letting Dion get back to what he is at his core, a slasher.
And yet, the Cavaliers keep losing. Over and over and over again. Sometimes it’s close, which can be encouraging that hey, at least the team is competing. Yet other nights it’s ugly and hard to watch and tests all of our patience.
I know I’m not giving a lot of concrete answers here to Brian’s original point. Is the rebuild broken? Is it over already? It might be. We as fans spend a lot of time preaching patience and waiting for development. We look for the slightest hints of greatness to verify our beliefs or hopes. It’s called confirmation bias. If you want/believe Tristan Thompson will be great, you’ll focus on the number of double-doubles and the small signs of improvement. If you believe Tristan is a wasted pick, you’ll focus on his many, many shortcomings.
If you want a straight answer out of me, I do think Rebuild Version 1.0 is broken. And I don’t think it’s the front office’s fault, I think it’s just that the Cavaliers had three Top 5 picks in two of the weakest drafts. There are no franchise players that could have been picked with the Cavaliers’ two #4 picks. I do not believe the core of Irving/Waiters/Thompson is remotely good enough to compete for a title, and I don’t think they ever will be.
However, I think Rebuild Version 1.1 is alive and well. I think the weak draft classes are just slowing the process down, but the philosophy is the same. The Cavaliers probably have a couple more lottery years left in them. The idea remains the same. Shed cap space, draft in the lottery, develop players. It just might not be the core we originally thought it would be, but there’s still time to develop a core that can win a title around Kyrie Irving.
Sometimes it’s good to ask the hard questions and try to look at a question from another perspective. It’s uncomfortable to think about the Cavs failing at rebuilding, and we’ve been preaching patience around here for so long. But that’s the plan, and the Cavaliers have no choice but to continue to follow it. Somewhere out there is a future great NBA player. It’s up to the Cavaliers to find him and draft him to complete Rebuild Version 1.1.
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Image Source: Amy Sancetta / Associated Press
104 Comments
well, he gave up on Brandon Knight for Klay Thompson late last season (and Knight hasn’t changed that stance). he likely would have just stayed with Klay for now.
Whoops put that in the wrong spot.
I don’t have references, but I don’t believe OKC fans saw Durant/Green/Westbrook of 2008 becoming the Durant/Westbrook/Perkins (effectively) of 2012-13. I’m actually more optimistic for Thompson than Green, and slightly less optimistic for Waiters than Westbrook.
I’m not saying sign us up for the 2016 Finals, but so far we’re as close to on-pace in the OKC mold as we could conceivably be.
Haha, that’s true. I kept trying to tell him… rare athletic talent + hard work = success every single time. I don’t think we’ve seen the end of the growth of Tristan Thompson.
I sure hope not. Would love for him to develop a 10-15fter.
Agree 100%
I keep hope alive for that. My college team, good ole Virginia Tech, used to have this player named Cheik Diakite (Shek Jakeetay) who had this awful looking turn-around jump shot from about 10-15 feet. It was flat as Debra Messing. But it went in at a ridiculously high rate. I am hoping Thompson, in spite of probably always having a really flat shot, can do something like that. He’s already started to be consistent doing it with his free throws.
so, he was the anti-Snow who had a Marilyn curving shot that never seemed to go in.
This is silly. Dion and Tristan are 21. The team is 10 million (I believe; correct me if I’m wrong) under cap, and willingly chose to spend lightly. This isn’t a finished product by any means. I’ve flirted with the falling-sky mentality, but take the emotion out of this. Please. This is fear-mongering.
Hahaha nice! I prefer Joe Smith and Elizabeth Taylor, but whatever floats your boat!
If the Cavs don’t take on any additional money this season/summer, they have to be holding out for “The Redemption”.
I believe that the whether or not this rebuild will work cannot be judged until we have the core in place. I strongly believe that this seasons draft pick (whoever it is) is a major part of the plan put in place by Grant, and we have to let him play out the whole process before we can judge it. Hopefully after this season Grant will make considerable upgrades to the bench so that this core has a chance to succeed. It doesnt matter how well the starting 5 play if the bench is as bad as it has been this season.
I want to think that TT and Waiters are servicable players, but as a Cavs fan, I’ve been able to talk myself into the likes Erik Williams, Ricky Davis and Smush Parker as servicable guys.
Brian’s opinion seemed to shake that sort of thinking out of Andrew as well.
(I will listen to the podcast, but only if Brian was making the Bruce Willis face the whole time.)
Here’s another example based on Memphis wanting to rid themselves of Gay’s contract to get under the luxury line:
Andy, Casspi, Miles
for
Gay, Bayless
Memphis hopes that Andy can play this year but regardless get more than what PHX is offering while sneaking in under the luxury line (I think, this puts them less than $9mil over the cap, I think that is under the luxury line this year).
Cavs get their SF, which means we need a 5 in the draft. Enter Cody Zeller.
PG: Irving, Bayless
SG: Waiters, ??
SF: Gay, Gee
PF: TT, ??
C: Zeller Fellers
Less money to go after people in FA this way though. I like the Kings option better but this one is likely more realistic.
This rebuild is going as planned. The young guys are getting a lot of time to play and develop their skills and grow. That’s why the cavs aren’t paying for a bench. Any of these young guys we have would appear to be much better playing with experienced teams, but that’s not the cavs situation. While I hate to see them lose and even at times get blown out, this time they are getting will suit them well in their growth process. I think a good trade for Andy, a good draft, and the team actually spending for a good bench, then this team can be on the verge of being a contender. All of these young players will be better…unfortunately the old cleveland saying ‘next year’…well next year the bulk of the team can be set then just a year of growing together or a trade could be then be the key.
It’s a joke because there is nothing of substance in this. You think a team in which none of the starters have played significant games together and most are extremely young and raw is reason to believe our rebuild is completely over. This is by far the worst article I’ve read on this Site.
You make it seem like there’s only one way to win a championship. AND please don’t cite a Thunder reference cause they haven’t won one and just traded one of their best players. So maybe the way to a championship is the way we’re doing it. Maybe it’s one star with borderline all stars/players who excel at their certain skill filling out the rest of the lineup so that no one else demands max salaries and then we have to trade them because we don’t have the money. To say we failed when our team hasn’t even really got to play together and gel just makes me lose so much respect for you. Way too early to start Waiting For Next Rebuild
Saying that they’ve never played significant minutes together is besides the point. You know who else hasn’t played significant minutes? Me. But I’m not the superstar who’s going to get the Cavs to the playoffs. We know what Zeller’s ceiling is – at the high end he can be Brad Miller. We know roughly what Thompson’s ceiling is – a slightly better version of Kris Humphries. People posted above that Waiters is only 21, but what were championship-level supporting players doing at 21? Russell Westbrook was significantly better as a rookie, both in terms of the eyeball test and productivity, than Waiters is. Even when we talk about Waiters showing “flashes”, we’re being charitable. He’s a bit shifty, but has almost no first step and his shot looks awful. For all of us who understood that after Kyrie the 2011 draft was barren and waited eagerly for the “loaded” 2012 draft, Waiters at 4 was a bitter disappointment. If there’s any consolation for us, it’s that Bradley Beal is the same but worse.
But there is no way that anyone can claim that this team has potential to contend. Their ceiling right now, if everyone were to stay and develop, is a borderline eight seed.
Seriously? This is a terrible response. Funny how you mention Westbrook cause their stats are pretty similar in their first year, which Westbrook was also 21 (especially considering Waiters isn’t finished with his first year). IN FACT the Thunder went 23-59 his rookie season, starting 3–29. Also I don’t know what eyeball test you’re using (Are you a former NBA scout?) but I think he’s shown some real potential and I believe it won’t be til next year we’ll be able to see what the real ceilings on these players are.
I see what you’re doing here. This looks decent but we maybe have the spare SG/PF on the roster. Super Center Zeller Bros. FTW!
Chris, there is another point to the article, that it is rebuild 1.1, meaning that the original rebuild may take longer…see the end of the article…
Andrew…your point through this article is that Tristen/Waiters and Irving are not the three all stars to get the cavs to a championship, so we should look for another star, or a different scenario…am I right to say that Grant/Scott have not said what the plan is, they never reference anyone or any plan…they just say that they want to draft the best players and when the team is ready they may try to lure free agents, but not until the team is ready…so no one has said, from the Cavs what the rebuild is…i think that they are looking each year to get the team better and looking at free agents when the team is ready to compete…so like you said…the “rebuild” with Tristen/Dion and Kyrie as your superstars, were never the Cavs stated intention, they are just drafting the best players that fit with them and building…Chicago has all stars around Derrick Rose but not superstars…they have several good players and one superstar. Boozer is an occasional all star, Noah maybe once or twice in his career could be an all star the rest of the guys are good players that play for Thibs…so…that is a model we can follow also…so…who said that this rebuild was around the three high picks in the three years that cavs were bad? and that they “had” to be all stars? Not the Cavs….so however long it takes to find the good players around Kyrie is how long it takes whether those good players are free agents or draft picks…
You act like that means something, please define when 1.0 ended and 1.1 started. It’s a rebuild, you can have a plan and make adjustments but it’s still part of the rebuild. It seems like you’re making things up.
it is defined by the author in the piece.
synopsis: rebuild1.0 is where we are today. we had 2 #4 picks in 2 weak drafts that did not net likely elite players. Irving is one, but you need more than one to win a title.
rebuild1.1 is what we do from here.
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as far as “part of the rebuild” it is an interesting distinction. the Bulls took 10yrs to rebuild. it was all apart of the rebuild. it’s not terrible to define things as they go.
to become a title contender, my opinion is that we would need a different SG and PF from what we have.
You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. All I ask is please read the article before commenting. In no way was this article combative or saying the rebuild is doomed. Quite the opposite, actually. All it’s really saying is that the Cavaliers had 3 top 5 picks in two fairly weak drafts, which is unfortunate.
I don’t think Irving/Thompson/Waiters is good enough to win a Championship. That is rebuild 1.0.
Rebuild 1.1 is whoever is drafted in the next couple drafts. As players are added to the fold, the rebuild changes and prospects of success either will get better or get worse. That part is impossible to predict. I just don’t think the returns on all those top 5 picks have been what most Cavs fans were hoping for.
You’re certainly right that I don’t have any inside knowledge of the Cavaliers’ thoughts on rebuilding. I can just go by what they have said publicly about building and by what we’ve seen them do as far as actions are concerned.
I think the Cavaliers did have high hopes for Tristan and I have to believe that when they had 3 top 5 picks in 2 years that they were hoping for better return than what they have seen so far. However, I want to reiterate that Waiters is far too young to be judged as a positive or a negative. He’s still writing his basketball future. So it’s fluid.
I appreciate your thoughts. That’s what this was all about. Asking the question and considering it.
I can’t speak for his face, but he does do a pretty awesome Australian accent in it.
Although I feel you completely missed the point of the article, I still appreciate you at least commenting on why you disliked it. Thank you.
This is definitely more realistic. This method also really needs Waiters to basically be Dwyane Wade.
The frustrating thing is every time I try something like you’re doing, I look at the results and think “Still nowhere near as good as the Heat”. That’s such an enormous problem for every single team in the East. How do you make a team that is better than LeBron/Wade/Bosh?
Their stats are not similar. Westbrook (who is seen as a late bloomer), averaged a point more, two assists more, and three rebounds more per game. Additionally, he averaged 20 points over a stretch of games and had a triple double as a rookie. If you see Waiters doing any of those things, you’re dreaming.
I can have an opinion about how Waiters looks without being an NBA scout. Besides, people who are NBA scouts thought he was a reach at 4. And look back at the media discussions of the Thunder in 08-09 and 09-10. They were already showing flashes and everyone expected and predicted them to get over the hump the year that they did – especially after they added Harden and Ibaka. No educated observers offer anything more than bare hope that the Cavs will improve, and the reason is what I wrote above – TT, Waiters and Zeller simply do not have the ceilings that Westbrook, Sefalosha, and Green were perceived to, and the Cavs will need get incredibly lucky to equal Harden/Ibaka with next year’s draft.
As it happens, Sefalosha and Green were not as integral as people expected because of the rise of Harden/Ibaka and the various trades. But comparing the Cavs today to the 08-09 Thunder illustrates how this rebuild is most likely a failure.
You resize if course that Dionis basically having a better year than Harden did in his rookie year, right? Compare apples to apples, fer chrissakes…
Westbrook rookie season: 15.2 PER, 48.9% TS%, 41.4 eFG%, 8.6 TRB%, 27.5% AST%, 17.6% TOV%, 0.035 WS/48
Waiters rookie season: 11.8 PER, 45.7% TS%, 41.9% eFG%, 4.9 TRB%, 18.7% AST%, 11.3 TOV%, 0.008 WS/48
Waiters shoots 3s better and turns the ball over less. Otherwise, there’s really no comparison between the two. Westbrook is better in just about every other measurable.
But really, it makes no difference. Comparing numbers has no basis in what to expect from Waiters next year. Westbrook is a PG, Waiters is a SG. There’s no doubt it’s harder to adjust to the NBA as a rookie SG than as a rookie PG. Waiters could be fine. He still could be a star. We just don’t know. It’s way too early to judge.
I’m sorry was that a reply to me? I specifically said to compare Waiters to Harden! Good lord!
This article is terrible. I don’t think Andrew understands the way this rebuilding process was supposed to happen. It was not meant to be a 2 year rebuild, that would be absurd. Chris Grant designed this rebuild to take several years. We still have more draft picks than almost any other team in the league.
It is based on the OKC model of saving cap space and building a good young team through the draft. If we look at Kyrie as our Kevin Durant then we are looking at very similar progressions. In KD’s second year the Thunder Started 3-29 compared what we are at now 8-28. Our bench is laughably bad, but that is what our many draft picks are for. We will have 2-4 first round draft picks in the upcoming draft. That is obscene, If we can replace Luke Walton and Omri Casspi with first round picks, one of which will be very high, then our team will be significantly better. Not to mention we have plenty of second round picks and Varejao to entice othe teams into making a solid trade for another good player.
This rebuild is still in its infancy and acting like we need to start a new rebuild is just ignorant.
I think you’re correct in calling it a rebuild 1.1. It’s not to say that TT, Zeller, and Waiters are complete failures, but it’s saying maybe they are much more complimentary pieces then we once thought they were, and that there is a need to find that “Star” to put on the court with Kyrie.
However, with that being said, I do agree that a large part of the issue that we have is that our bench is a joke. Leuer, Walton, Gibson, Casspi don’t deserve to be on an NBA team.
If Jesus loves me, he’ll allow the Cavs to draft Shabazz out of UCLA and Andy will decide to finally stay healthy, and we can have Gee, Waiters, Zeller, and Livingston coming off the bench.
Hah, yeah, you’re right. For some reason I thought you said Westbrook. But yeah, like I said, it takes SGs a while to develop. I have no idea how good Waiters will or won’t be.
Bingo. That’s exactly my point. It’s not about TT and Waiters not being good. It’s about questioning whether they will be the stars they need to be for the Cavaliers to contend eventually.
Nobody said anything about it taking two years. Nobody projected the Cavs to be good this soon. You completely missed the point, and that’s a failure on my part as a writer.
All this article is saying is that someone said the Cavs rebuild is blown. I question this, say that from the standpoint of not thinking Thompson or Waiters will be stars you could say the first phase didn’t work as intended. I then pointed out that all this means is more draft picks and the Cavaliers can keep rebuilding the same way. This rebuild is a process that is ongoing.
False. Rebuild 1.1 would be when they traded one of the original parts they imagined being part of the future. You can’t say after 2 years it’s now 1.1 because you would be saying that 1.0 is finished. 2nd-Why are we letting Westbook be a late bloom but not even let Waiters finish the season. Like I said their stats are pretty similar, 1 ppg doesn’t change anything, and as you know most young player progress (that means to get better) over the course of the season, which most likely means a bump to his stats as they are now. I’m happy you brought up Ibaka, because he played in Europe after the Thunder drafting him, so I would say both Thompson and Zeller are contributing more than he did. So the Thunder did terrible in their 2nd season with Westbrook and Durant, just as we’re not doing great with Irving and Waiters right now. Next year with the third added piece (our Harden) and the two spending more time to learn the NBA game and chemisty we should be a lot better. Also Thompson and Zeller will each be good pieces to have. Thompson as a double double machine and Zeller and a great backup center. All I’m saying is this rebuild isn’t onto 1.1 and it’s not a failure either. I’m sick of hearing this. Give it time.
Andrew: Given Dan Gilberts comments last night…that they build through the draft until they get better, then when they are better, they try to build around the core of what the draft brings….
I was thinking about the Bad Boy Detroit Piston teams of the late 80’s and the second piston championship team in 2004 (I think)…I am from Detroit…so…when I look at those teams and today’s Chicago Bulls…I find that the 80’s Detroit team had one superstar (isiah), sometimes all stars Dumars, Laimbeer, and good role players…Rodman, Salley, Johnson, James Edwards, Mark Agguire, Mahorn….in 2000’s Pistons had no superstar, and several sometimes all stars and good role players…todays Bulls, one superstar and boozer (sometime all star), Noah…maybe all star once in his career…and solid role players….so…there is more than one way to build a team and different models…Because of the weak drafts…I do not see Tristen or Dion as superstars…I seem them as maybe sometimes all stars, with Kyrie as our superstar…so, in future drafts, maybe we find another superstar, or just another sometimes all star, and in free agency we lure solid players….so…I do not think this is Oklahoma City… I think this is draft until we are 500 or above…then add pieces that bring us higher than make trades to bring us over the top…Like Dumars did with the 2000 pistons and McCloskey did with the 88 89 pistons….Kelly Tripuka for Adrian Dantley, Adrain for Mark Agguire….second round picks for Laimbeer, drafting Rodman and Salley, Thomas, and Dumars…trading for Vinnie..etc….what do you think? (thanks for responding to my first post)
You bring up some great points, Dave. I personally tend to view the 2000s Pistons as an outlier. It’s very, very, very hard to contend with that model. You need the exact right mix of chemistry, determination, and effort. And you need to defend better than everyone else. Ben Wallace was the catalyst for those teams because he was such a great defensive player and rebounder. The Cavs don’t have that guy yet if they were to try to replicate that path (I do like the Cavs chemistry, though).
I think the Cavs are in a good position because they still have flexibility. Their path isn’t set in stone. A lot will depend on where they draft this year and who they get. If they get another star in this draft, then they are well on their way. If it’s another role player in the mold of Thompson, then they might have to go the route of using cap space and acquired draft picks (and maybe Varejao) to trade for another impact player.
The bottom line is, I don’t want them to try to force Kyrie to do it on his own like LeBron had to. The Cavs could have and should have won a title under that model, but I just think there are better and more efficient ways to rebuild.
Days late on the comment: but I feel the way to salvage the rebuild is with a legitimate home run FA signing this off-season. Tristan is probably in the vicinity of being a 10 & 10 guy for his career. That’s not bad. Those guys are important in the league. But he’ll never be “robin” (by the way I hate that used as a basketball term).
Dion is raw and will take some time. I’m happy to give it to him, but it’s just a fact.
Sadly, this year’s draft, while better than Kyrie and Tristan’s year, doesn’t appear to be great either.
So I think a big FA hit is probably the best way to salvage the mission.
I think the issue is that the spending needs to start in the near future.
1.0 ended when it became pretty clear that Waiters wasn’t going to be a superstar anytime soon if at all.
I wonder why you’re so angry with the 1.1 designation. It’s not as if he said 2.0 or “HOLY CRAP DUMPSTER FIRE.”
To me, 1.1 suggests “well, we didn’t get it exactly right on the first go through, so now we need to make some slight tweaks to the original plan.”
I think you usage of “never” should be used carefully… It is still premature to conclude tristan will never develop into an all star… I think the cavs have hope in becoming a contending team… Thanks
Like, say, LeBron James two years from now perhaps? Haha.
Yeah, I think Tristan’s going to be a fine role player for this team. I hope people don’t get the impression I’m saying he’s worthless. But to contend for a title, you almost always need a 2nd star to go with your franchise player. I hope Waiters can become that, but I have my doubts.
Whether it be through next years draft or through free agency, the Cavaliers definitely need to find that 2nd guy.
Cause I’m tired of people giving up on players before they have a chance, it’s the Cleveland sports way and it’s the reason our teams are so miserable. You think these young kids want to read how you guys don’t think they can help this team win a championship. Why do they want to go out and work hard for you when you can’t even give them two seasons to try and get their things together. Based on what you’re saying you would have given up on the Thunder taking you to the championship before they had time to develop. It’s crazy!
However, no one is giving up on (specifically in this instance) TT or Waiters. Most of us are just acknowledging that TT is probably not an all-star. We are similarly acknowledging that Waiters is probably not a superstar, as those people tend to pass the lauded “eye test” pretty quickly, but that it is still too soon to tell.