WFNY Podcast – 2012-12-17 – Scott and Craig talk Browns losses and the end of the season
December 17, 201212 Days of Christmas goes old school
December 17, 2012The six-foot-four-inch, rocket-armed rookie leads the NFL in batted passes by a wide margin, having added four more to his first-year resúmé in his most recent loss. Said to have been mature beyond his class, having leadership qualities unparalleled, Weeden is nearing 30 years of age. But what he has in measurables and intangibles, he lacks in instinct and whatever quality it is that allows one to learn, manicure and progress over time — let’s call it adaptability. When asked what Weeden plans on doing to rectify this glaring, season-long issue, he offered the most telling of quotes.
“I don’t really know,” Weeden said. “It’s been one of our better plays. I don’t have an answer for you.”
The plays being referenced are the short, middle-of-the-field passes which are hallmark of the West Coast Offense. Weeden’s downfall, however, comes when several of these “plays” are check-downs following the quarterback’s progressions, mis-reads and receiver watching. Defensive linemen, stoutly blocked by the Browns’ stellar offensive line, simply have to sit back, watch the rookie’s eyes and time his release — the result: batted ball after batted ball, killing drives, crushing morale and wasting crucial downs.
Potentially the most damning of the entire debacle, Weeden knows why these passes are being swatted out of the air like mid-summer mosquitoes.
“If the defensive linemen aren’t getting to me, they just kind of stand there, watch my eyes and stick their arms up,” said Weeden. “I’m trying to throw over guys three yards down the field [on shallow crossing routes] and that can be challenging.”
Understanding the problem is half of the battle; making the changes necessary over the course of the four-plus months of practice is the larger half. Weeden, however, has decided to be the problem rather than the solution.
This is not to say that the fault exists solely on the shoulder pads of the red-headed wonder. Weeden’s head coach is an alleged offensive mastermind; a former quarterback coach in his own right, Pat Shurmur’s know-how earned him the subsequent positions of offensive coordinator and, alas, head coach. Shurmur’s right hand man, Brad Childress was also a quarterbacks coach in addition to his multiple roles as an offensive coordinator. Mark Whipple, Mike Holmgren’s hand-picked molder of the pass-throwing clay, has multiple line items on his resúmé that say that he too was a quarterbacks coach prior to landing in Cleveland.
This is not to say that this troika of terror has not attempted to correct their quarterback’s mistakes — this is, after all, a correctable offense. Even the John Madden football series allows one to obtain medals and extra accolades, along with added experience with game play, in a pocket presence mini-camp; the user forced to move the quarterback around the pocket prior to lofting passes toward the desired target. The allegedly cerebral Weeden merely has to step a few inches up into the pocket (or left, or right) to create new passing lanes, allowing the ball to fly unabated toward his receiver of choice. Instead, Weeden acts as if he is still on the mound, donning a High Desert Mavericks uniform, throwing pitches from a statuesque set.
Shurmur reiterates that the reason Weeden’s passes are batted due to the playbook and the location of the receivers with regard to the quarterback and the defensive linemen. He too knows the issues, issues that have been prevalent all season but were previously chalked up to a rookie quarterback having to deal with a professional pass-rush. But on Week 15 when the game is supposed to start slowing down in the minds of the men who are tasked with executing plays, things appear to still be flying through Weeden’s head at ludicrous speed — he admitted to not even seeing the defender who intercepted his pass early in the third quarter, subsequently setting up a lead-snatching drive for the Redskins.
The result? More of the same. No snaps from the shotgun, allowing more space and alternative passing lanes; no bootlegs that allow the admittedly immobile Weeden to throw the ball in space. An inexplicable avoidance of in-game (or in-season change), four more pass attempts falling to the earth behind the line of scrimmage, and another losing effort in an otherwise winnable contest.
Weeden would call the Browns’ 38-21 home loss “frustrating.”
It’s easy to attribute the same adjective to many layers of what transpired. And not just in that game — this has been a season-long drip that continues to only serve to further submerge the Orange and Brown dinghy known as Shurmur’s playbook. Getcha life jackets ready.
—
(AP Photo/Patrick Semansky)
96 Comments
I smell another QB run out of town too early by over-eager Browns fans whose impatience will always get the best of them. We can all look at what some recent QBs have managed to do in their first year and assume that they would have done the same here, but the truth is, we have no idea. We can’t assume Cam Newton, Andrew Luck, RG3, or even Collin Kaepernick would be impressive in orange and brown because only Colt and Weeden have had to go through this. Only they have been subjected to the ineptitude that has been the Browns coaching staff and front office over the past few seasons. If we draft another QB early in the 2013 draft, it will be another shining example of our failure of an organization. I have no problem getting a middle round QB to compete and push Weeden to be better…but can we give anyone a chance to grow for this team before throwing them away? We only give guys 1 season before we determine they don’t have it. Some rookies need more time.
This is the same thing we went through last year with Colt. Shurmur refuses to adjust to his qbs. Look at Kyle Shanahan yesterday, adjusted in the second half and torched them. That’s an adjustment Shurmur has never made in 2 years.
Shurmur is not a good coach. Bottom line.
Brandon has made his share of mistakes, but every other roookie QB having success has the benefit of a great coach.
if the coaches and FO are making decisions based on the fans, then they are not a FO or coaching staff that I want.
(i do not think such decisions are being made based on fan input)
Weeden may not be the guy. But if he is the guy and needs time for further development, our impatience from watching the parade of recent failed QBs is not going to speed the learning process. It’s just going to be more hysteria the FO has to either ignore at their PR peril or will succumb to in a non-football decision. I want the FO to make a football decision onl about Weeden.
Personally, I think the guy has a ton of physical talent. It’s not like he hasn’t learned any pocket presence nuances since training camp (remember the strip sacks? Remember when he didn’t know how to slide in the pocket?). I totally agree about what you call “instinct,” Scott, what I’ve called a feel for the game that should let him instantly process his options after the first choice is gone and second are ticking. Like Cousins showed. But a lot of the worry about his age is blown way out of proportion, since it’s the physical beat-downs that render so many QBs ineffective at a relatively young age, like Bernie and Couch. A big, strong-armed QB can last a long time if his football brain develops. That’s the part I’m worried about. Maybe his absence from the game for 5 crucial years removed the football chip and that’s the part he can’t recover quickly, if ever.
I don’t think they do it solely based on fan reaction but I do think it’s a piece of the puzzle unfortunately. Fans booing the entire game, threatening to not go to games, etc. will affect a teams decisions because they need to make money and that means appeasing the fans. I’m not saying they would dump Weeden just because of fans wanting him gone, but if struggles continue and it gets a little harder to find redeeming qualities, having upset fans just adds more fuel to the fire to draft another guy. There’s plenty of evidence to support that some amazing QBs had a rough first season. I’m not saying Weeden will be that guy, but you’ll never know if he only gets 1 season to do anything.
i think he’ll get that 2nd season unless we decide to do something drastic and bring in a Chip Kelly where Weeden just doesn’t match what the new coaching staff wants to do at all.
but, regardless, there is still a decent chance we draft a QB in round2 (trade-up) or round3 anyway. there are 5-7 QB prospects coming out this year who are all in the same conversation. none of them are considered elite guys, but all of them “could” be very good. not sure how many will be 1st round picks. but, some of them will slip and it’s possible it’s the best one. we’ll see what happens.
Why didn’t we draft Kaepernick again?
Can we discuss Derek Andersonlike qualities now or is it still to early?
Do you honestly think that Kaepernick is the reason the 49ers are winning? Or that he would be great in Cleveland? Could it have anything to do with the stellar defense? The multitude of offensive weapons? This team was killing it with ALEX SMITH at QB. I bet you could plug Weeden in there and they’d be fine. One player isn’t our problem. In fact, I think we have a solid team. Not an exceptional team, not an outstanding team, but a solid one. It’s philosophy, coaching schemes, and overall coaching mentality that’s our problem.
No comparison. Weeden may be a bit of a gunslinger at times, but mentally, he isn’t the lose cannon that Anderson was.
The same reason alot of other teams didn’t as well. Better ? would be why Weeden when he was drafted when you still had Foles, Wilson and Cousins around. And yes I not only liked those 3 (preferred Wilson or Cousins to Foles) before the draft but mentioned them.
Great point this is what will be Weeden’s saving grace possibly. He clearly plays like a QB who is just “winging” it out there an actual coach, coordinator or mentor was needed from day one. But ask McCoy about that too.
Another great point. ^5
Lets not repeat history and reach for another QB and possibly waste a draft pick that could have been used to improve the team elsewhere. Like LB or CB or WR. I agree completely you give Weeden a second year but under better coaching, hopefully.
it’s quite possible that it wouldn’t be a reach. i have no real feel (though have my favorites) of the QB prospects this year. they each have good points and bad points. if we do take one in the middle rounds and give Weeden next year, then we might have a good QB on our bench.
just saying a new coaching staff shouldn’t ignore that as a possibility.
——————-
oh, and I think we’re good at WR (unless we can get Welker or Jennings – but that’s different).
“I don’t really know,” Weeden said. “It’s been one of our better plays. I don’t have an answer for you”
Translation: PLEASE HELP ME, PAT RUINED COLT AND NOW HE’S DOING THE SAME TO TRENT AND I…JIMMY, PLEASE HELP NOW!!!
I’ll pass on Welker. I think Travis Benjamin will be our own Welker and I think his best years are behind him. Jennings is a great WR but I don’t think he’s a ginormous improvement over what we have. It’s not like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson level. Plus, lets not forget who was throwing the ball to these guys. Who knows what they would be like here. WR’s can make QBs look great but it works both ways.
First off, we don’t have a stellar D? Alex Smith isn’t a great QB as well? Do we not have a RB who can control the line of scrimmage the way Gore does? Which WR is making Kap look good? He is younger, more athletic, and looks better in what, 3 games alone, than Weeden has the entire season. I hope Weeden is the guy. I’m just not seeing it.
it definitely works both ways. i would actually go the other way though. I’d take Welker before Jennings (due to Jennings health issues).
I see Benjamin as a different guy than Welker. Travis seems best when he’s on deeper routes or a guy we should hit with some bubble screens. Welker is just a refined route-runner who makes nearly every catch.
Either way, I would take those guys in part because I think they would give the team on-field greatness for a couple of years at least, but also because they are renowned workers off the field as well and I’d love to have that influence (from great players) on our young WR corps.
There are comparisons both physical and in the results but the “aw shucks Andy” look that Weeden constantly has during post-game press conferences make me laugh. Both in their own ways look dazed and confused! Pass the brownies.
Did anyone else see the sideline shot where McCoy was animatedly discussing something with Mark Whipple, and Weeden was just kinda hanging back not paying attention or part of the discussion?
Not saying Colt is the answer, but at least he seemed to care about what was happening. Weeden seems shell shocked, hopefully he pulls it together during practice this week.
I’ve been there for about a month now: https://twitter.com/JimmyCTown/status/270215799241854976
after the first quarter we let Cousin’s complete 5 of every 6 passes and have his way with us. is that a stellar D?
The only thing worse then this organization’s inability to draft a QB is it’s inability to find a head coach so lets just say I’m less then optimistic on either count.
As for WR they could still use a veteran producing wide out IMO. At the least it couldn’t hurt just look at GB who had Jennings, Driver, Nelson, Jones and then added Randall Cobb. You never have enough WRs.
McCoy will never see a snap unless Weeden is incapacitated, physically not mentally. Another crack in the Shurmur dam IMO.
Remember when DA was on, he was absolutely unstoppable? Same with Weeden. Unfortunately, those are very very rare moments.
I have no problem getting a middle round QB to compete and push Weeden to be better…
Wasn’t that kind of the scenario yesterday?
For those of you scoring last year’s draft 102>22, 173>3.
“they just kind of stand there, watch my eyes and stick their arms up,”
One possible solution. Did Jim leave any of his visors behind?
http://tinyurl.com/bo5qw4t
In no way am I a Weeden fan, but I think blaming him is absolutely the wrong way to go. Cleveland abandons young QBs so quickly if they don’t show immediate greatness. If we don’t begin giving these guys a chance to work through their limitations and ignorance to develop into something worthwhile, why would anyone want to come here? I have to imagine abandoning guys after a bad season or two is devastating on locker room morale as everyone begins to feel they’ll be abandoned next if they don’t live up to impossible situations.
As pointed out on this thread, Shurmur is an awful coach without the ability to adapt to his QBs. Also, the offensive line is atrocious. Neither of these are Weeden’s fault, but they’ve hindered him greatly.
We need to fully commit to our QBs for 3 seasons with a competent coaching staff and an offensive line capable of giving adequate protection or else we’re just going to go through this same thing over and over.
No wonder things seem to be flying through Weeden’s head at incredibly fast speeds…he’s dealing with incompetent coaches and a demoralized team.
brenden just aint the answer
Don’t talk about Weeden that way, I’m sure he takes this sh** serious!!! lol
Not as simple as that, but whatever. Comparing individuals based on the results of a team game. Interesting idea.
I actually don’t think they’re that similar outside of their number, that they both play for the browns, and neither was particularly awesome.
Washington won 2 games last year. Are you saying they’re superior in ever other position as well?
Then we’re really doomed.
Correction, 5.
how long were they on the field though?
Unfortunately, you have to make a decision on Weeden very soon. I know everyone hates that I bring up his age, but its the reality we have to deal with. Weeden just doesn’t have the timeframe a 22 year old would. That doesn’t mean you run him out of town or draft a QB with your top ten pick, but you have to be willing to cut the cord a lot sooner than you would with your typical rookie QB.
There’s always an outside chance that Colt gets a shot next year. It seems more and more likely that anyone who had anything to do with Weeden being selected will be gone.
Not at all, but there’s alot more that goes into the evaluation of an individual than just how their team performs in a game or even how they perform individually in a game, especially during a rookie season. Saying that player A is definitely better than player B based on their the results of a game in their rookie season is ridiculous. Let’s see where Trent is in 3 or 4 years compared to Morris or if RG3 hasn’t had major reconstructive knee surgery.
curious what known facts make you say any of that. Haslam said he spent a lot of time speaking to Holmgren before he left. If Holmgren told him Weeden was his idea (since Weeden was looking pretty good then), or simply that he rather than Heckert wanted Weeden, then maybe Heckert would not take the fall. We can guess but we don’t know..
Yeh! Brenden Weedon is totes turrible!
longer than if they had forced some 3 and outs.
“If the defensive linemen aren’t getting to me, they just kind of stand there, watch my eyes and stick their arms up”
Maybe if you didn’t stare down one, and only one reciever, on every play, they wouldn’t know where to just sit back and wait to bat the pass down.
I wouldn’t necessarily call Bruce Arians a “great coach,” but he probably is much better than Pat.
I would have liked to see McCoy get a chance yesterday or at least be considered when it’s obvious Weeden is off his game. I say this not as a Colt supporter but rather as someone who is curious to see what McCoy might be able to do with far superior talent around him then a year ago. It’s just a mess even still which is more evidence that this organization isn’t in much of a better place even now.
I say they are alike because both possess the physical size and arm strength with an ability to throw for alot of yardage but an inability to put touch on the ball, an inability to read defensive coverages, happy feet, not stepping up in the pocket and not being able to or allowed because of prior deficiencies to audible. The #3 has nothing to do with it.
You seriously think out O-line is atrocious?
Man, that’s what it’s been this whole time. We drafted the wrong Weeden!!