Miller Listed as Starter for Saturday Against Penn State; Hall Expected Back?
October 22, 2012AP Poll: Ohio State slides to No. 9; Ohio up to No. 23
October 22, 2012
Lost in all of the Pat Shurmur play-calling bashing, questions about the health of Trent Richardson, the special teams disaster, the extra point gaffe by Reggie Hodges, and of course the big drop by Josh Gordon was the stellar play of rookie QB Brandon Weeden.
Remember back after the 17-16 season-opening loss to Philadelphia, half of the city was already done with Weeden? The Colt McCoy catcalls were in full effect. I for one told people that what I saw from the rookie in his debut was some of the worst quarterbacking I can ever remember. I walked away from the game thinking the defense was better than I thought and Weeden was a disaster waiting to happen. But a funny thing happened on the way to writing Weeden off…..
He got better and better and better. This is not Blaine Gabbert version 2.0 folks.
While last week’s big home win over Cincinnati was a day we will look back at as Weeden’s first victory as a pro, it was yesterday’s 17-13 loss that may have been his finest hour in his first year under center in Cleveland.
I know, the Browns only scored 13 points and you aren’t going to win many games that way, but it certainly wasn’t the fault of Weeden. He was efficient and smart, completing 25-41 for 264 yards and two TD’s. The rapport with college teammate Josh Cooper worked well. He only made one ill-advised throw by my count. The poise was there. Weeden is a victim of porous play-calling at times too, which is the west coast offense way. I am still not crazy about these two yard crossing routes on third-and-four (and we see them way too much). But with each passing week, you can see Brandon’s improvement with the command of the offense.
The guy we are seeing today compared to that deer in the headlights rattled rookie in the home opener are as different as Terry Francona and Bobby Valentine. And as we know, that is a very good thing.
Of course he’d have gone over 300 yards with three TD’s and possibly had been a winner if not for Gordon’s fourth quarter endzone drop. And on that particular play, Weeden couldn’t have thrown a better ball. The narrative this morning would have been completely different. There would be story after story about the ascent of the Browns rookie QB.
Instead, we are discussing the Jimmy Haslam reaction shot.
Think about the stakes and the timing of the play. The Browns trailed 17-13 with just over six minutes to play. It was third and one at the Colts 41. Weeden play action-faked and was absolutely crushed as he put a perfect ball in the air in stride right to Gordon, who has become the Browns big play receiver. He just dropped it. These things happen. Gordon obviously has to make that catch, but he also came down with that amazing TD catch a week before against the Bengals and has shown the ability to give the Browns something they haven’t had since Braylon Edwards 2007 season – a legitimate deep threat.
Take the good with the bad.
Credit Weeden for standing up for his guy after the game as well.
“The loss was not even close to being on him. Everybody in this locker room makes mistakes. He makes that catch nine times out of 10. He’s coming into his own, and he’s becoming a really good player,” he said.
That is the kind of leadership that teammates love from their QB. As much of a talent Cam Newton is in Carolina, check out his comments after the Panthers lost another heartbreaker at home to Dallas yesterday:
“This taste, this vibe – I’m not buying it, man,” Newton said, according to Scott Fowler of the Charlotte Observer. “And I don’t know what it is but something’s going to have to change. Something’s going to have to change real fast.”
“We just find a way to keep the game close and just wait to see what happens at the end,” Newton said. “I’m getting tired of it. That’s not a formula to win. Domination is a formula to win.
“I’m going to leave this (media) room and I’m going to bring in a suggestion box and I want your suggestions to be in that suggestion box because I sure don’t know,” Newton said. “I really don’t. I wish I could tell you. But the only thing I control, sweetheart, is myself. Offensively, I am the leader of this bunch and we haven’t been getting the job done.”
Stark contrast right there. Weeden gets it.
I know you are all upset about losing this very winnable game, but this is another throw-away year in terms of record. Its all about the improvement and seasoning of the young core players. From Weeden to Gordon to Richardson to Craig Robertson to Joe Haden to TJ Ward to Billy Winn to Jabaal Sheard…. I could go on and on. The bottom line here is being competitive each week while growing as a group and Weeden is leading that charge.
What we’ve seen out of him since that first week debacle is probably the best Quarterbacking in Cleveland since the return of the Browns in 1999 other than the fluke 2007 season from Derek Anderson.
There’s nowhere to go but up.
(photo via John Kuntz / The Plain Dealer)
112 Comments
Sorry Brad, but we got together with Mack Brown and agreed not to start another McCoy until you learn to stop posting that your sons should start at various Longhorn and Brown’s web sites.
Would McCoy be better this year with a better surrounding cast? Probably. Would we have a minimum of 3 wins if he was the starter? Highly doubtful. The only game you can make a decent case for is the Philly game. If McCoy plays his average game that day we likely win.
The rest of your post , however, is just nonsense. If you can’t see with your own eyes that Weeden is superior to McCoy, there’s nothing I can do to help you…
“That’s what my frustration with Weeden is. We completely crapped the bed on getting Griffin, and our backup plan was to spend a first round pick on a guy whose timetable looks nothing like the rest of the team.”
I could not agree with this more. But, it’s done. Nothing we can do to change it now. The people responsible for said RGIII bed crapping are about to be gone. Most importantly, the Lerner family is no longer responsible for the Cleveland Browns. Even if we had gone 0-16 this season, I’d say we came out ahead.
What we need to do this year is find out if Weeden is the guy or not, definitively. I think the jury is still out. Luckily the new ownership and President have a couple of months to evaluate him (and the rest of the team). Right now, there aren’t any RGIII or Andrew Luck types looking to come out this year. I’m not sold on Barkley (beware USC QB’s), or Andy Murray, or Geno Smith (intriguing, but not sold).
Worse than having the Weeden error (if that’s what it ends up being) would be to compound that error by selecting a guy in the upcoming draft who may not even be as good as Weeden, just because he is younger, and costing us a draft pick.
OTOH, if Weeden is above average, and gives us a better shot next year than any of the (currently underwhelming) QB’s likely to be in the draft, then why not ride him while we can, and maybe wait a year or two, and maybe that perfect QB does come along somehow in the meantime. Like they say, life is what happens while you’re making other plans
i’d start LeSean if we had him
i’m right there with you. he was already drafted and on the Browns, so i’m not worrying about Weeden’s age until it is an actual issue. right now, it’s not.
If by “superior” you mean a stronger arm, the Weeds has it. However, if you are referring to the ability to win football games, I ‘d have to agree that with McCoy the Browns would be at least 3-4, maybe better.
Right, QB ratings are complete fiction. There is no correlation between the numbers and say, Aaron Rodgers or Payton Manning’s ability to win football games that say, Brandon Weeden or Mark Sanchez might lose.
“Weeden is big and pretty strong and what he does well can last well into his mid or late 30s”
Yep, he ought to be figuring things out right about the time he retires.
If small arms, smarts, spunk and intangibles were king in the NFL then Ken Dorsey and Craig Krenzel would be leading playoff teams.
What are you doing to me, Brownfan? I like Colt and your Weeden Hater insanity is turning me against him, because of YOU. Stop it. They’re both nice. One guy’s deficiencies in brawn doesn’t make the other one stupid.
Weeden might be 29, but he was out of football for a few years and not taking the same beating, so that’s likely worth an extra year or two on the back end. I’ll take 6-7 years of solid QB play any time. He’s currently 8th in the NFL in passing yards…immediately behind Peyton Manning and ahead of guys like Rapelisberger, Luck, Matt Ryan, Schaub, and RG3. He’s tied for 13th in TD’s with 9. Also if you give the guy a mulligan for that week 1 debacle, his QB rating is 85.6…which would be good for 17th in the NFL and if far superior to any Browns QB since the return, save maybe DA’s anomaly 2007 season. He hasn’t even played half of a season yet, and he’s already middle of the pack in a lot of QB stats. When you consider the lack of experience and how green the WR corps is, I think that’s pretty impressive, actually.
Now…we need these numbers to start translating into wins, or ultimately they don’t mean anything. But right now there is a lot to get excited about with Weeden. He seems to be picking things up quickly and improving rapidly (786 yds, 6 TD, 3 INT’s in the past 3 games). If he can give us 6-7 years of above average QB play, he was well worth the pick even given his age.
Is that you, Trent?
If you’re going to use sarcasm, you have to employ multiple exclamation marks. Sheesh.
[QB ratings still suck, though, Ray. John Elway’s career rating was a 79.9. Good enough for the Hall of Fame. Not as good as Bernie Kosar, Jake Delhomme, or Chad Freaking Pennington. And Weeden’s just behind!]
Which 3 games did Weeden lose for the Browns? I remember a bunch of dropped passes and missed tackles, but don’t really recall Weeden losing 3 games. Unless, of course, you meant the McCoy should have started at WR or CB . . .
And that is a throw that McCoy can’t make. I love Colt but Weeden definitely
‘ throws a better ball. Will he become smart also? I don’t know but the physical part of the game he has.
figuring what out? How to make a receiver not drop a perfect go-ahead TD pass in the 4th quarter? The guy completed an impressive number of tough third downs and made few mistakes despite no running game, and this is his 7th pro game.
Please tell me when the #1 overall pick in the country will “figure it out.” Two quick 3 and outs in the 3rd quarter when he could have easily put the game away or bled the clock. And when Shurmur blew the 4th and 1 call and punted with 6 minutes left, Luck gave the ball back in 2 minutes flat. Add bad pocket awareness with the strip sack.
If you don’t like them drafting an older rookie, say it. But you lose your credibility by criticizing his play when he played quite well.
Yep. Stronger arm. And becoming more accurate. You know what wins in this league? Pocket passers with big arms that can throw darts all over the field. Guys who can make all of the throws…not little squirrely mobile guys with below average arms and lots of heart. Almost all Super Bowl winners recently had QB’s that fit this profile. The only exception is Brees, who has a stronger arm than McCoy. Brees is an outlier. You have to have the big guy with the big arm to win in today’s NFL, almost without exception. It’s reality.
I like Colt McCoy. I like his leadership abilities. I like his character and his guts. But that’s not enough to overcome his physical limitations. Weeden makes throws every week that McCoy only dreams of. And that’s what wins games and ultimately championships nowadays. I was in the “Free Colt” camp for quite a while…I wanted to see him succeed. But watching Weeden play the past few weeks has sold me on him. He has the physical tools. Judging by his rapid improvement, it looks like he has the smarts. Now all he needs is the experience and the weapons.
Harvard, I’m not criticizing your body of work. It’s excellent. I just got a chuckle out of, “Next year certain things will be easier if . . .”
Big arms may not win games, but you know what definitely did not win games in the NFL? Colt McCoy.
Explain to me why, exactly, the jury is still out. What more do you need to see from him? He obviously has an elite-level arm, and he’s getting better by the week. He’s putting up good numbers and giving the team a chance to win in spite of completely inexperienced wide receivers and TERRIBLE playcalling. What else do you need to see?
Either you haven’t actually watched the games, or you’re simply stupid. 32nd according to what statistic? QBR, the ESPN stat that is so horrendously flawed that even ESPN itself no longer mentions it?
His average QB rating over the last 5 games is over 85, which is EXTREMELY good, especially for a rookie..
According to the QB stat he is citing, Jake freaking Locker is a btter QB than Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees. Still care to support the accuracy of that statistic?
Having one of those “you lookin at me”Mondays.
This is sincerely the single dumbest comment i have read in quite some time. I would point out everything that’s so horrendously idiotic about it, but it would take too much time, and i’m guessing you’re too dense to understand.
McCoy is a TERRIBLE QB. The people who drafted him already wrote him off. Every other team in the league passed on the chance to trade a very low-round draft pick for him. He can’t throw more than 10 yards. He has no accuracy. He can’t go through progressions.
Also, he stifles the running game, as defenses just stack the box due to his inability to throw deep. WHat is hard to understand about this? If McCoy was starting, we qould be 0-7.
Also, i’d love for you to explain your “no sense for the game” comment. I’m begging you.
Then you are clueless and know absolute zero about football. Please explain to me why McCoy would be better.
Let me explain this once again: McCoy has an absurdly weak arm. Every defense in the NFL knows this, so they stack the box and jump the short routes, as they know he is incapable of making them pay by beating them deep. Which means the short routes are covered, and he can’t hit the deep pass. Not only that, but the running game becomes non-existent, as the defense just stacks the line of scrimmage due to McCoy’s weak arm. So how exactly would he be winning these games?
Also, why exactly do you think you can evaluate McCoy better than the 32 NFL teams who have already seen enough to write him off?
I can’t think of a single example of this from the last 2 games. Literally not one example. Are you just making this up entirely, or did you have a dream in which this happened?
Cam Newton was the second coming of Jim Brown crossed with Johnny Unitas last year, how’s that working out for him?
It’s not a slight against Weeden, its a nod to the fact that it is incredibly difficult to be consistently successful in the NFL
Voulez vous coucher avec les poissones?
Luca Brasi?
I agree with just about all of this. I’m not saying we need to freak out about replacing Weeden, but we need to start thinking about what the plan is down the road, when we expect this team to be good. I don’t think hope Weeden hangs around like Hasselbeck is a sound strategy, non-elite guys very rarely last that long.
First off, if you’re going to mock a guy’s name, I will have little respect for the rest of your opinion. We’re all mature adults here, we don’t need to stoop to that.
And you don’t get to give Weeden, and then nobody else, a mulligan. That’s not how it works. Also, by QBR, Weeden is easily the worst in the league, so it’s not that impressive actually.
And, Weeden may have been out of football, but he was throwing 90 mph fastballs, which is actually worse for his elbow and shoulder. I think its reasonable to expect him to lose some zip before other QBs do. That also reminds me of the argument that people used for Anthony Parker on the Cavs. Even though he was older when we signed him, people said that because Euro League had a shorter season, he had more tread on his legs. How did that work out? Expecting 6-7 solid years out of any QB is a pretty foolish bet. Expecting most of them past 30 is an even longer shot.
And, to be exact, his QB rating would be 83.4 (you don’t just averrage the rating for each game), good for 21st. So, giving Weeden a big boost, we still have a solidly below average QB. Ho hum.
A rookie QB with a group of wide receivers who are raw and inexperienced at best, with no running game and incompetent coaches making terrible playcalls, and yet he still has an 83.4. I don’t know what deluded expectations you have for a rookie QB under those circumstances, but trust me when i say that 83.4 is excellent considering what he is working with.
They are more than capable of being good in the very near future, with Weeden at the helm. With even semi-competent coaching, we would already have a few wins this year. The Browns really aren’t that far away. A new coach and upgrades at 2 or 3 positions, and they’ll be good. Weeden may be 29, but he was out of football for years, meaning he didn’t take the normal beating and won’t be restricted by the normal timeline.
I didn’t say he has prven to be elite. But he has more than proven that is a solid starting QB who is getting better with each game, and will probably continue to do so.
“Trust me” isn’t a very persuading argument. I’m familiar with the problems around Weeden, but he has more than a few shortcoming of his own too. I have no deluded expectations. I expected to see a QB going through some growing pains and to have him figure things out, and for the team around him to finally be playoff-worthy just in time for his decline to hit sharply enough that we have to look at a new QB.
You seem to have completely ignored my response to why people want to ignore the normal aging curve for Weeden. Your gamble is that he can age like Trent Green? I guess you’re going to have to take some gambles somewhere, I would just like to make better bets.
This “hey, we’re kind of competitive” talk suggesting the Browns are close does little for me. In the NFL, teams that are kind of close win more than a couple games, and don’t lose 11 in a row. We’ve got some steps to take just to get into that “7-9 and surprise a couple good teams” range. Then, obviously, there are more steps after that. I think they’re on the right track too, but they put themselves so far behind the 8 ball
let me interject for a moment. yes, Weeden will have normal rookie growing pains. yes, Weeden has looked very good for a rookie as has this entire rookie class. yes, Weeden is 7yrs older than a normal rookie and that will factor into the equation “at some point”
here is what really matters though:
Is Weeden the QB on the roster who will give us the best opportunity to be competitive right now? Undoubtedly yes.
By the end of the season, has Weeden progressed enough to continue to be a starting QB in the NFL? If game1 continues to be an aberration and the rest of his games continue to be the norm, then undoubtedly yes.
each offseason we can evaluate whether or not he will “regress” the following year, but each QB is unique and until we actually see the regression, there is little need to do more than ensure we have quality backups behind him. take a look at Rivers. he is not yet of the customary dropoff age, but he lost his WR corps the past few years (VJ + Sproles + Gates aging) and he has looked below average the past 2 seasons. other QBs like Green, Mitchell, Batch survive well into their 30s despite not being HOF quality.
basically, there is no reason to gripe about his age this season or next. he is our QB. he is playing well. for once, the QB play doesn’t seem to be costing us games (after wk1). no reason to not enjoy the time we have with him. should have learned that from Kosar’s career arc.
To pile on, Weeden is a highly intelligent quarterback with the right mental makeup to move on from a bad play. That was the biggest reason for Ryan Leaf’s failures… he couldn’t get past a bad play. I have absolutely no clue how you have come to determine that Weeden has “no sense for the game”. That’s an uninformed opinion.
“Will he become smart also?”
I don’t get this, and please don’t take this as me being angry, I just don’t know how you arrived at this opinion? I’ve heard a couple of guys say it on this thread, and I can’t even imagine where the idea comes from. Have you heard Weeden speak publicly? He’s a very intelligent guy who absolutely understands the game of football and his role as a leader. Find his QB camp with Jon Gruden on YouTube and watch it… I think it’ll help you come to some more accurate realizations.
*GASP*!
This is a great point. I missed the first half on Sunday, so I watched it on NFL.com last night. The rest of the Browns’ offense was doing everything possible to blow that first TD drive… the offensive line wasn’t creating holes, there were a couple penalties, Richardson was running tentatively because of his ribs, and he suffered at least one drop from WRs. Weeden still found a way to put the ball in the endzone, although Little tried as hard as he could to drop the perfect pass for the TD. After watching that drive, I felt like we had a QB who was making things happen in spite of playing against 21 opponents on the field. (I realize that’s not true, he had very good pass protection on most of his passes, but it’s still fun to say).
Oh no. You don’t respect my opinion because i poked a little fun at our main rival’s QB. Whatever shall I do? Lighten up…It’s just football.
My point witht he whole “mulligan” talk is that the Philly game was clearly an outlier. It’s obviously not representative of what he is capable of, given his performance since. When you analyze trends, you shouldn’t give much weight to outliers. If he throws for 500 yards and 6 TD’s this week, that’s an outlier too, and should be treated accordingly.
The question is: is Brandon Weeden improving? If you really want to give as much weight to his week 1 performance as to each of his subsequent 6, I guess that’s your call…but I think that means you have an opinion and you’re searching for facts to back it up, rather than looking at things as they really are.
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Steve, the thing I’m struggling with is what the “normal aging curve” is. With a sport as violent as football, how do we identify a control group? What quarterback has ever been allowed to play out his full career without dealing with repeated hits and degenerative injuries? They talk about how the effects of multiple concussive hits to the head accumulate over time, is it any different on the shoulder or elbow?
The sample size of quarterbacks starting their nfl careers in their late twenties is very small (even if you include Scott Backula) so I tend to think we are wading into unfamiliar waters. Hopefully the Browns will continue to improve their offensive line and keep Brandon upright so we can see this play its self out fully.
Why are we assuming that the only things that make your body age happen on a football field. I don’t know about you guys, but I can’t run, jump or throw like I did 10, or even 5, years ago, and I haven’t been taking brutal hits in that time. There’s more to aging than taking a few extra hits.
I agree that Weeden is the best QB on the roster and is a worthy starting QB in the league. I just completely disagree with the idea that we had to find such a short-term solution last offseason.
The question shouldn’t be what QB gives us the best opportunity to be competitive right now though. We’re 1-6, and we’re playing just as poorly as many people expected. We should be looking to build a team that can be truly competitive down the road, not win 5-6 games this year instead of 3-4. We should have been (still be?) looking for a guy who can grow with this team and peak at the time that the rest of the roster is ready to compete for a playoff spot.
I’m looking at Rivers, who will be 31 this year, old for the NFL. Yes, his WRs have fallen off, but a QB slipping by 30 should be no surprise. Your other examples are Mitchell and Batch, who were both backup QBs their entire 30s. That’s not evidence in your favor. I’ve already mentioned Green many times. I think it’s a pretty good comp if we want to remain optimistic health-wise. But that’s one out of how many? And are we really all that excited if we have the next Trent Green?
I get where the difference in opinion is. People are happy with improved QB play, and want to not have to worry about roster management until the need smacks them in the face. My gripe is not with Weeden and his ability right now. It’s with the front office that didn’t seem to have much of a plan. I also get the “it is what it is, and let’s just be optimistic”, but I’m going to splash a dose of reality (QBs don’t last till 35) every once in a while.
“I agree that
Weeden is the best QB on the roster and is a worthy starting QB in the
league.”
good to know where we agree.
“I just completely disagree with the idea that we had to find
such a short-term solution last offseason.”
last offseason, I would have agreed with you. I had Foles ahead of Weeden on my draft list for just such reasons.
however, watching the past 6 games for Weeden, I have changed my mind. my goodness, we have a legit offense now, which helps all players develop. it is tough for a WR to learn how to run proper routes when the ball doesn’t go to the correct spot or fit in the tight windows.
everything is better with a better QB. we have a better QB. until he starts to decline, I am not going to complain. yes, we need to be more pro-active in having a solid backup in place. yes, we’ll need to guard ourselves by drafting QBs to be that backup. but, we won’t be the only team to do so. GB drafted developmental QBs for years. NE just drafted Mallet. Etc.
the point of the matter now is that we have a QB who is making our offense look good. we are getting to see what we have in our WRs and RBs and OL as a result. there is additional merit there.
whether or not you think Weeden will be the starting QB in 5yrs is really inconsequential.
Adults are above ad hominem. I’ll just leave it at that.
And I happen to know all about outliers, and considering our sample size is just seven games, we don’t have any yet. That performance is clearly in the range of “what he is capable of”. It actually happened. And if he does throw for 500 yards and 6 TDs this week, I’ll patiently wait for the fanbase to go “outlier, we should ignore that going forward”. You think that will happen? Of course not, people will trip over themselves to say we have a star.
That was not the question. Your presumed question is a classic case of goalpost-moving. Something along the lines of “if we just exclude that one really bad time, he’s been competent enough” does not follow along the same vein of my original point – Pretending that we don’t have to worry about Weeden until he is 35 is not a good bet.
i disagree though. if that game was in the middle of his set of games, then fine.
but, that game happened to be the best pass defense he has faced in the first NFL-speed action game he ever played. it may very well “be in the range of his capabilities” but I think the suggestion that he learned about the NFL in that game and has adjusted has credence.
I did a poor job of stating my point. when I think of great quarterbacks Physical ability is only part of what Makes them great. The ability to attack the defense on a play by play basis by recognizing their weakness on any given play is what makes a good quarterback, a great quarterback. Weeden has the physical skills, but so did many other quarterbacks throughout history. If he can learn the game like a Tom Brady Or a Bernie Kosar then we may have a great quarterback. If not he will still be a good quarterback (IMO) but greatness is not out of the question. Time will tell.
My fault, I took the “also” in your comment to mean “like Colt McCoy”, which is what made me balk.