Madden 13 – Browns fans win as Haden falls to Rodgers
March 28, 2012Ford: Cavaliers Select Perry Jones III in 2012 Mock NBA Draft
March 28, 2012I was astonished to read something about the Packers at ESPN today. Regarding the signing of Jeff Saturday it is notable that the veteran center for Peyton Manning is the first unrestricted free agent signing for the Packers in three years. That led me to do some more digging and I found that the Packers are so proud of the way that their team is built that they have a “How The Packers Were Built” page on their website.
On that page it tells you that 33 of the current Packers were drafted vs. 31 who arrived by way of free agency. That free agent total sounds pretty high, but so many of them were undrafted rookies it makes sense. Donald Driver is the lone player remaining from the 1999 draft. Chad Clifton is the lone player from the 2000 draft. Then there is a scary break in the action as the Packers have no representatives on the team from 2001 – 2004. During that time coach Mike Sherman fulfilled both the coach and GM role until Ted Thompson was hired in 2005. Thompson drafted Aaron Rodgers and built a Super Bowl winning team.
Jordy Nelson? Second rounder from 2008. Jermichael Finley? 3rd rounder 2008. Ryan Grant was acquired in a trade from the Giants in September of 2007 in exchange for a future sixth-round draft pick. James Jones was drafted in the third round of the 2007 draft.
The Packers high picks are interesting to note. A.J. Hawk was a first rounder from 2006. Nose tackle B.J. Raji and Clay Matthews were both first rounders in 2009. The last two years the Packers have selected offensive linemen with Derek Sherrod and Bryan Bulaga. Other than Aaron Rodgers in 2005, the Packers have selected LB, DT, DT, OT, OL. In 2008, they traded out of the first round so the Jets could take Dustin Keller. That was when they selected Jordy Nelson from Kansas State toward the top of round two.
Based on Tom Heckert’s first two drafts it seems that he also might be headed for those kinds of drafts. The Browns did attempt to trade up to select Robert Griffin III. The Browns have been linked to star position players because of their fourth pick, but most of the talk has been about trading down, it seems, rather than selecting Justin Blackmon or Trent Richardson at #4. Could it be that the Browns just don’t want to take a chance on skill positions so high in the draft where the stakes are as big as the potential egos?
In Heckert’s first year he selected Joe Haden at #7 and followed it up with T.J. Ward and Montario Hardesty in the second round. Hardesty cost Heckert a third (#71) and two fifth rounders (134, 146.) Of course last year, the Browns traded out of the Julio Jones selection and ended up taking Phil Taylor at #21, Jabaal Sheard at #37 and then used Atlanta’s second rounder to take Greg Little.
Heckert has yet to draft an offensive skill position in the first round and only seemed tempted by the high ceiling of Robert Griffin III. Of course at the end of the day, it isn’t so much about what position where as it is about getting good players more often than not. We’ll see if this year’s draft continues to make comparisons applicable, but it seems that Ted Thompson would approve of the Browns’ strategy thus far.
Unfortunately for those who want to see big splashes in free agency, it doesn’t look to be very likely. Then again, when Thompson did make a splash it was for Charles Woodson. It seems like that splash might only be once a decade though. As for the records, the Packers were 4-12 in 2005, 8-8 in 2006, 13-3 in 2007 before falling to 6-10 in Aaron Rodgers’ first campaign leading the team. The Packers have won 11, 10 and 15 games in the years since.
None of this means that the Browns will have the same results, but at least there is a track record for success using what appears to be a similar method.
38 Comments
Amen. I think Heckert can have the same success. I did like the hardesty pick at the time… but it looks like that one isn’t quite working out. we’ll see though.
Although the Pack didn’t have years of SUCK before they used this scenario to get them to a super bowl… and they had a little luck in getting Rogers. I’ve always thought that “it takes money to make money”… same thing in the NFL it takes winning to garner winning… and that is something the browns just have done since #19.
Also the packers always had a top QB… I’m not saying the strategy for the browns won’t work but the FO has to find it maybe it’s Colt McCoy but until we don’t have THE player at that position, speculation about building strategy is moot IMHO.
I’m not necessarily saying the browns current FO is doing a bad job to adress that position, i’m just sayin it has to happen at some point. As we all know you have to have a little bit of luck for that as well. If I were cynical I’d say that the browns – under the current regime – haven’t been bad enough so as to get the top pick in the draft which is the sure thing to get an elite QB. Grabbing a franchise QB at the end of the 1st or later rounds is -depending on how you see it- luck or good scouting. I believe it’s more about luck…
It is articles like these that give me hope for this franchise going forward. Championships (especially Super Bowls) are rarely won with big splash trades and signings. A big name free agent is more likely to hamstring an organization financially for the better part of a decade than win a Super Bowl. Every FA name that I’ve heard thrown around for the Browns has ended up signing for significantly more than they are worth. I know that it is hard to be patient, but it takes time to build a sustainable winner (as opposed to the one-year wonders we saw in 02 and 07).
take a look at what the rest of the division has done in FA too. it’s not like everybody else is diving in head-first into FA.
besides the Bengals addiction to 1st round busts, not much movement:
Ravens: Sean Considine,S & Corey Graham, CB
Steelers: None.
Bengals: D.Harvey, DE, Green-Ellis, RB, and J.Anderson, DE
Browns: Rucker, Parker
Meanwhile, this is how many players each team has lost:
Ravens: 5 (actually lost talent in Grubbs, J.Johnson, Redding – less in Nakamura/Zibs)
Steelers: 2 (doubt they miss Meredith or Gay)
Bengals: 5 (really only Rucker and Caldwell they might miss though)
Browns: 4 (only Hillis and Adams should count)
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that and we have 13 picks (4 of the lowest ones cannot be traded). I’m guessing that we’ll bank a couple for ’13 and use a couple others to trade up to target specific players. that’s still 7-9 players out of this draft and at least 3 of them will be in the top40 picks.
Not exactly earth-shattering news: draft good players and you’ll win. It’s been the m.o. for the Pats, Giants, Packers, and Steelers.
I haven’t followed too closely, but I think the AFC North is going to be weak, weak, weak this year. I’m not convinced the Bengals weren’t a fluke, the Steelers keep getting older, same with the Ravens, and then there’s us.
Not earth-shattering except as Browns fans we get so caught up in how bad they played last year and trying to figure out how they’re going to get better that it creates unrealistic and unnatural expectations for things like free agency. It is good to poke your head up from the Browns once in a while just to measure against teams that’ve gotten it right recently.
There’s a big difference between the Packers, who have proven they can draft well and have an established team not splurging in free agency, and the Browns, who see Frostee Rucker as an important upgrade.
How dare you even suggest that building through the draft is a possible model of success! Don’t you listen to the radio?!?
Although, as people have pointed out, the Packers have been in the unique situation of having back-to-back franchise QB’s. That certainly helps the model’s sustainability.
This is very important information. If you want to fix what’s wrong with the Browns, it’s better to look at what works elsewhere than to recite cliches or merely avoid mistakes that have been made in the past.
It’s what you get out of the info that’s interesting. Is the lesson that you don’t need high draft picks on offense, or that when you have an elite quarterback, you don’t need to spend high draft picks on offense? Is it that you should invest in big name free agents only very rarely, or that you should invest in a lot of unknown free agents? Is signing Frostee Rucker something the Pack would have done, or would they have signed three or four Frostee Ruckers?
So the Packers, with their franchise QB and years of excellent drafting don’t have to go out and overpay on the free agent market. Got it. How does this apply to the Browns again exactly?
This was never a comment on the Browns’ success or failure regarding the draft.
My point is that you cannot win consistently trying to built through free agency. You end up getting players that are at or just beyond their peak value and have to pay them big money while on the downside of their careers.
The ONLY way to win and win consistently (especially in the NFL) is by drafting well.
im not troubled by the lack of activity in this phase of free agency.
but when your starting LG is out for the season after the first/second pre-season game… and your RG retires unexpectedly… and you sit on your hands… and THEN wrap yourself in a cape of ‘be patient we’re building through the draft’…
that’s were they lose me.
Right, which makes his suggestion moot; it’s not apples and apples, its apples and telephones.
Besides, its not not “we are building through the draft” is a novel, landmark idea. Every team has that philosophy.
MG, come on…the other teams all made the playoffs last year.
If it’s ain’t broke…
You’re strawmanning.
I can only speak for myself, but my annual disappointment in our inactivity in the FA market is in no way related to my desire to build through the draft. I realize it’s the way to go. All but the dumbest followers of the NFL know it too.
That said, they’re not mutually exclusive options. We can do both. We need to do both. I think people are missing the second half of those GB numbers:
31 free agents
Lets assume those were all UFA. What’s our track record on those? Over the last two years, we’ve signed 33 undrafted FAs. In 2011, only three were on roster/practice squad and none had any impact.
In short: what I’ve been disappointed with (or at least what I worry about) is our front office’s ability to find talent, both in the draft and in free agency. I’m willing to give them time to see how this turns out.
exactly. there’s a difference between splurging on a big money FA and addressing your basic needs so the offense can function.
look at McCoy…
last year his supporters said, give him a year to learn the system. we then proceeded to trot out linemen who couldn’t block and a receiving corps that was substandard. what did that get us? an offensive unit that was so poor that it made evaluating McCoy pretty darned hard. now the McCoy supporters say, whou wouldn’t suck with a turnstile at RT and receivers who can’t catch?
i also question if the fanbase can suffer through 3-5 more of ‘be patient we’re building through the draft’. seems like that’s been our philosophy for the last dozen or so 5-11 seasons.
if you aren’t getting stronger, then you are getting weaker
it’s possible that they are just getting weaker. or it’s possible they know it’s more important to build through the draft. up to you to decide which one (or it could be both).
it’s possible, but we’ve been saying the Ravens and Steelers D’s have been getting older for at least 5 yrs now
Exactly and unlike GB the Ravens especially use free agency.
gamblers logic tells me that we’re due to be right
What most dynasties have in common is that they acquired a franchise QB to build around as he developed. Granted, it helps when Aaron Rodgers falls in your lap. The point is we skipped a rather important step, and we all know growing pains are ahead, hence the frustration. A lot of the pieces we are fitting together now will be gone by the time a QB is in tow and ready to win.
Building through the draft fills a team with talent on cap friendly contracts. When the rookie contracts approach expiration the team faces a decision to retain players or replace them through the draft (which teams prefer with the exception of the QB and a few key players). We have already started to identify and retain key players, and will soon be faced with the backward model of trying to fit a QB into a mostly built team. That model can work, but it is not the model through which dynasties such as the Packers were built.
well, actually Phil Savage traded a bunch of draft picks for veterans (Rogers, Corey Williams) and to get Quinn.
Mangini/Kokinis traded for a bunch of stop-gap veterans. we actually had one of the older teams when we were rebuilding there.
off memory, Butch did try to build through the draft.
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how about for once we don’t scrap all the plans after 2-3 years especially when it looks like we are not just drafting a bunch of busts for once?
well, actually Phil Savage traded a bunch of draft picks for veterans (Rogers, Corey Williams) and to get Quinn.
Mangini/Kokinis traded for a bunch of stop-gap veterans. we actually had one of the older teams when we were rebuilding there.
off memory, Butch did try to build through the draft.
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how about for once we don’t scrap all the plans after 2-3 years especially when it looks like we are not just drafting a bunch of busts for once?
the Packers were mostly built when Rodgers started for them though (see winning season with Favre before the 6-10 year with Rodgers learning the ropes)
the Steelers were definitely a winning team before they inserted Ben.
the Pats were a winning team when they inserted Brady.
the Ravens were a winning team when they inserted Flacco.
the Colts built around Peyton
the Saints built around Brees (sort of – that one is more of a hodge-podge of moving pieces more than the rest that are more black/white)
the Giants built around Eli
the Eagles built around McNabb
You know, I would find this point more reasonable if we started with adopting a good plan and then decided to stick with it. I see no virtue in adhering to a long term plan that doesn’t work. If there were, the Lions, who hung on to Matt Millen for forever, would have succeeded with him, rather than right after — or three years after, if you prefer — dumping him. Because teams that are actually improving show signs of improvement that translate into increased win totals, while teams that don’t have increased win totals but do have executives claiming that there is improvement often are not, in fact, improving. All of which is to say, I don’t have any problem with discussing whether ir not the current approach works.
Point on Savage.
Mangini traded for more draft picks and acquired those stop-gaps to ensure that our team wasn’t horrible.
Where did I call to scrap it all? Though I don’t think a desire for consistency negates some of the conerns people have.
GB enjoyed success with Favre for sure that’s why when Rogers were drafted alot of the experts thought it was a wasted pick. People forget Rogers sat a few years before being given the ball and look at the soap opera there was when it happened.
-Brady started when Bledsoe got hurt, end of story.
-Roethlesberger fell into perfect situation all he had to do was manage the game and not lose it.
-The Ravens won a SB with Trent Dilfer for God’s sake, enough said
Comparing us perennial playoff teams like the Steelers and Ravens is silly.
My only comment on the Browns drafting was that it’s been so different from the Packers (Steelers, Ravens, Patriots, you get the point) that we can’t make any sort of comparison. These teams aren’t getting hot and heavy with free agents for one simple reason – they don’t have to. Unless the Browns find some magic fairy dust that allows them to hit on just about every pick, they’re still a couple years away from contending for even a playoff spot if they’re only building through the draft. Taking a shot on a free agent or two in the time being isn’t going to cost them dearly.
Like you said it helps when Aaron Rodgers falls in your lap…they didnt go reaching for a QB.Am I the only one who realized how bad this team was four years ago?This team needed to be gutted and rebuilt by someone who knew how to draft and knew talent.When you have the seventh pick in a draft and three second round picks besides multiple picks in other rounds and you only come out of it with a starting center and a backup Lb?….its time to start over and make changes and just shows why your franchise is where its at.This team had to be built from the ground up and when the time is right they will get the QB who they think is right for this team…if they havent already.
It’s not rocket science here. Cleveland needs to resign Steinbach if he is healthy and still draft 3 o-linemen. One right tackle and and 2 guards and a DB. I have been saying this forever. Trade down and just draft trench players in first couple rounds and then grab your skill players a little later. They made the right pick with Haden a couple years ago in a tough spot so I have some faith. I hope we trade with Rams and then trade down again for some more extra picks. I love late 1st rounders, all of 2nd rounders, and early 3rd’s.
Big name free agents stink. Remember the terrible contracts that Deion Sanders got from Dallas and San Francisco. They were hamstrung from him.
I was thinking about the Steelers in regard to the backward model. GB did do a major overhaul around Rodgers, drafting offensive weapons and also changing the defense from a 4-3 to a 3-4. The developmental years with Rodgers helped facilitate that. My point is that the preferred method is to get the QB and then fit the pieces with mostly underpaid drafted players. The drafted pieces we have might not be there for our next QB. If the Redskins offer a 42M contract to Greg Little in three years we’d probably wish him luck then draft another second round WR at 1/5 the price. If we do eventually build a team that is good enough to win with a talented young QB right out of the gate, that’s great, but most teams that talk about building through the draft aren’t doing it that way.
elite $$$ for elite players only. Deion, Reggie White, Charles Woodson. It’s hard to overpay those guys.
it’s the non-elite guys that make the near-elite money that hamstring you.
Perhaps not much other than in 2005 Rodgers went with the 24th pick and the Browns had the 3rd pick that year.
The NFL, with salary cap/floor and free agency, is filled with skewed teams. The teams that have consistently risen to the top the last several years either have a great QB to support an offensive skew or a great LB/S duo to support a defensive skew. As a fanbase, in whatever way possible, hit that theme until Mike “I Am The Walrus” Holmgren gets one or the other accomplished. At any given time there are roughly six teams who have accomplished this task, or 20%, so it can be done. If it’s a mystery to the men in charge after a three year opportunity, fans need to light up the switchboard and demand a change to regime that can get it done.
If it helps any, there are plenty of Packer fans up here beating up Ted Thompson for his general inactivity. Apparently having arguably the best team in the league over the last three years combined isn’t good enough. The Pack are supposed to be #1 by more. The Packers gave up a lot of yards between the 20’s, just as the Patriots did, and plenty of fans, long dissatisfied with not being titillated with splashy off season moves, are using the yards given up as a club to beat TT over the head with. Thompson is supposed to jettison his model and spend money in free agency and package his picks and trade up. So it doesn’t really matter how successful you are, some people just want to be stimulated by shiny tinsel.
Ultimately there is no one perfect model – some recent teams have been successful using internal promotion and others have been successful dipping routinely into free agency. It comes down to knowing where to find talent, and the ability to find the right guys to fit a winning scheme. It’s tough, and, again, only 20% of the teams can do it, and in this NFL the duration is rather short even when success has been assembled.
Rodgers fell into the Packers’ lap because 23 other laps passed on the privilege, including the Browns who were third in line. But, perhaps, Rodgers would not have had time to develop with another team. If the Browns were truly serious about wanting to build through the draft around a franchise QB a la Rodgers, they would convince their fans to wait while that QB sits and learns, even with a high salary, while a journeyman helms the team. Rodgers got to sit for three years, which it seems he needed every bit of to be who he is today. But patience is short, and seats have to be filled, so green horns are trotted out to be broken and turned over. It’s the nature of the modern NFL.