Box Score: (3) Ohio State 78, Penn State 54
January 25, 2012Irving: Varejao’s Toughness is Contagious
January 26, 2012While We’re Waiting serves as the early morning gathering of WFNY-esque information for your viewing pleasure. Have something you think we should see? Send it to our tips email at tips@waitingfornextyear.com
“Counter punch: Yoenis Cespedes, anyone? To me, this would be the best move the Indians could make to show Indians fans they mean business. He’s young, controllable and could be a star in the Majors. He fits within what the Indians are trying to do and is, really, the only thing left on this winter’s market that would send a strong message to the fans. The Indians definitely have interest, but this could turn into a bidding war.” [Bastian/MLB.com]
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“So when do we get our blockbuster headline? Looking back at the Tribe’s free-agent signings over the last 20 years or so, there have been some notable names, but none on the level of Fielder or Pujols. The Indians did have moderate success keeping their own star prospects before they approached free agency, but those decisions have led to the payroll-crushing deals given to the likes of the under-performing Travis Hafner and the oft-injured Grady Sizemore.
In the Indians’ heyday of the 1990s, aging pitchers Dennis Martinez and Orel Hershiser brought veteran stability to the Indians’ rotation, but neither was in his prime when they wore Wahoos on their caps. The core of those championship teams were draft picks who came up through the system together, with one or two notable exceptions: In 1999, 30-year-old all-star Roberto Alomar joined the Indians for roughly $7 million per season, a headline-maker to be sure. And in 2001, the Tribe brought 31-year-old run-producing machine Juan Gonzalez to town on a $10 million deal. Alomar was an MVP-caliber player for three straight seasons with the club, and Gonzalez hit .325 with 35 home runs and 140 RBI in his only year with the team.
Since then? Not a superstar deal to be found.” [Frantz/News Herald]
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Exactly what I said about Herron. A great 3rd down back, who will play for a while- “Boom Herron had some explaining to do this week, but he didn’t have a ton of proving to do. He’s not a first or second day pick, but Herron is a solid player with a track record of productivity and a running style that indicates he can move the chains in the NFL. He’s the type of person who can help himself in interviews with NFL decision-makers, and he’s the type of back who can be ready if called upon next fall. He might never be a 1,000-yard rusher, but he’ll have a career. ” [Jackson/FSO]
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Interesting slant, If Twitter Existed Then… “Quick diversion here…I remember just about everything about this game, but most vividly, I remember sitting around with a bunch of fraternity brothers and other friends watching it. Being from Cleveland and going to college in Indiana, my fellow Hoosier natives would cheer against Cleveland teams just to irritate me. From about halfway through the fourth quarter to the end of the double overtime though, every person in the room with me went from saying “Go Pistons!” to “I cannot believe what I am seeing right now.” Absolutely one of my favorite moments in college.
If Twitter existed: Marv Albert calling it “one of the greatest performances in NBA history” immediately results in #MarvAlbert becoming a trending topic worldwide and people instantly declaring it the single greatest performance in all of sports history. Pistons fans are in awe and tweet things like “…” and “I have no words for what I just saw.” No Cavs fan can resist tweeting “I am a witness!” ” [Maroun/Hardwood Paroxysm]
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Love this. Which baseball player has worn the most different uniforms? How about the player that wore the same exact style uniform for the most seasons? [Creamer/Getting Blanked]
54 Comments
apparently Frantz didn’t live in town when the Tribe acquired David Justice who put up great numbers in 97, 98, 99 and 2000 after winning his world series with the Braves in 95.
i guess he kinda gets lost in the mix of those big 90’s lineups.
Quick question about the Indians/baseball: We have consistently been told that the reason we cannot compete/sign good players is due to our small market/mid-market stature. That we cannot buy players like the Yankees, Red Sox, etc.
What is Detroit? Are they a larger market? Is their city more prosperous?
Food for thought. Were we lied to over and over? Hmm…
Yeah, wasn’t he a Yankee before coming to Cleveland? Or was it after…
It’s not necessarily the size of the market, it’s the size of the owner’s wallet.
Illich is 82 years old and wants to win a World Series. If the Fielder contract cripples the Tigers in a couple of years he figures it will be someone else’s problem.
So, then what we were told was hogwash. Surprise, surprise.
And, since our owner doesn’t want to spend the money…what does that say about him? Does he NOT want to win a World Series? Is he opposed to it? Or, is he opposed to spending money to do so.
What would he think he could do, besides spending money on players, to win a WS? Voodoo? Human sacrifice?
It’s not a mystery on how to win in a league with no salary cap.
It always starts with the owner that’s one of the reasons I’ll never come to the rescue of the Dolans. It’s not my fault they aren’t wealthy enough to have such an expensive hobby as a major league baseball team. Titus is right about Illich see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Ilitch he has way more bullets in his gun then the Dolans who own a bb gun in comparison.
My other problem is that the Indians or people associated with them have continually modified how or when they apply the “we’ll go out and get players when we contend” mantra. There’s always some excuse to justify not spending on a player who wasn’t already under their control.
It really boils down to the ownership. If we had a billionaire buy the team that could afford to operate in the red for a few years while buying quality players it would make all the difference in the world in building interest and a better relationship with the fans. Instead we got the Dolans who got fleeced on the deal with the Jacobs family and subsequently got themselves in over their head on a few players that didn’t pan out. Thus the penny pinching state we are in; clubs that bring in giant amounts of revenue can offset bad decisions but Larry Dolan isn’t in that position.
And yes, we were lied to. There has been plenty of lip service about market size and poor attendance but that is a product of the situation they’ve put the club into with mismanagement. That, coupled with the lies about spending when we are competitive again, leads me to the conclusion I shouldn’t ever take what this club says seriously. Bad ownership and bad front office decisions.
Your vitriol for the Browns FO = my vitriol for the Indians FO. See, I do have critical bones in my body 🙂
The link was about free agent signings. Justice came to the Tribe in the Lofton trade.
DJ was acquired via trade with Grissom for Kenny Lofton, et al. They are discussing free agent signings
No. He had only played for the Braves when Cleveland traded for him
Actually, “Metro Detroit” area (Detroit-Warren-Livonia) is about 4.5 million people, whereas “Greater Cleveland” is about 2 million)
And apparently there’s a lot of money in Casinos and Pizza!Pizza!
Ilitch is losing money every year on the Tigers. Peter Gammons has talked about this. Should I blame the Dolans for not wanting to lose money each year on the Tribe? I’m sorry, I just can’t do that.
Well said there should be plenty of VITRIOL to go around when it comes to ownership in this town.
It will be interesting to see if Dolans use Hafner savings next year to extend Choo, Masterson, Drubs, etc. or just put it in their pockets.
Yeah, if I could get you to aim that cannon at the obvious failings of the Browns organizations. So it goes. God bless you, though; you’re an idealist with the Browns and while that’s a shame, it has been a consistent ideology for you. And if there is one thing I respect, its consistency.
And I agree with you 100% that no matter what b.s./p.r. comes out of the Indians organization, I will always remember that they lied to all of us as fans.
Well said. I also love the point about “when we contend,” because that argument makes me want to re-think my stance on global thermonuclear war.
You have to spend money to make money. That’s the oldest one in the book. Right next to “You’re either with me or you’re not!” Adjacent to “Don’t expect extra playoff tickets.” Ha.
I should add, I respect that ideology in the same way that I respect World War I soldiers who marched head-first into machine-gun fire.
Thanks. Mea maxima culpa.
Detroit has 2X the population in their metro area compared to Cleveland. So, yes, they are a larger market.
Spiritual thoughts while watching the fetid hot mess that is Carmelo, Amar’e and D’antoni: what if God had appeared to me in 2002 and said, “Listen, I know you wish you could influence the fate of the Cleveland Indians, so here’s your one chance. I have two Dolans, same family. You choose which one will buy the Tribe.”
Me: Oh, boy. What can you tell me about them?
God: Dolan #1 is richer. But he is egotistical, impetuous, demanding. Tries to buy his way out of trouble. Wants to win for his personal glory. Chaos surrounds him and he enjoys it.
M: Like Steinbrenner, right?
G: Well, I do not create any two creatures exactly alike, so comparing them …
M: Yeah, but he just needs to win, even for the wrong reasons, he’s wired that way right?
G: You haven’t heard about Dolan #2. I’ve blessed #2 with enough wealth to give this a shot, but just enough.
M: Don’t like how that sounds.
G: He’s a very good man. Stable, honorable. He performs actions for the right reasons, he treats people well, and receives loyalty in return. Would rather die than embarrass an underling or the city. He would want the team to win for people like you, not to bring attention to himself. An owner who would admired and respected forever if the team wins a ring.
M: Is he cheap? Like Mike Brown?
G: No. But I have not granted him the wealth I bestowed upon #1.
M: Could you?
G: No. Your call.
I still don’t know what I would have done.
Can’t spend what you don’t have.
Maybe the Dolans should go into the pizza business instead of the cable industry.
Are they as large as New York? Should they be spending like New York?
I wonder if they switched teams both might be better off. Spending lavishly to try and create a fantasy team might be better off in baseball where chemistry is less of an issue as it’s about individual performances. Larry might be a better fit in the NBA, where a salary cap and the attractiveness on NY might serve him well.
What’s worse? Steinbrenner himself WANTED us. Talk about missed chances.
Mark professional sports can’t be run like a business that’s the problem with the Dolans. You don’t own a professional sports team to make money you own it to win championships. If you make money along the way that’s gravy. The Dolans bought their way into a sandbox that was to big and now it’s become quicksand!
Or slinging BS like they have ever since they’ve become owners of the Indians. I think Paul Dolan is going to be on with Les Levine soon and for some unknown reason I’ll probably watch.
Ugh, don’t remind me. I think of that often.
they are not as large as NY but they are not spending like NY either. they will be at least $70-80mil less in salary than NY.
Carlos Guillen ($13mil) and Maggs ($10mil) contracts expired after last season. So, they technically are redistributing that salary to Prince (they have other raises and such to account for too).
noone seems to have solid numbers yet, but from what I can gather the Tigers payroll should be around $120-$130mil next season. the Yanks are trying to ‘slash’ their payroll to just under $200mil (which may happen with Posada’s $13mil coming off their books)
Likewise. And I work a stone’s throw from Steinbrenner Field and coach against teams from Steinbrenner High School…as if I needed further evidence that the Sports Gods have a twisted sense of humor.
also, as I showed yesterday from Forbes, the Indians have been consistently spending more per capita than Detroit. Forbes had it at $45/person in Cleveland and $31/person in Detroit.
that’s the fans POV. how many owners think that way? we just sat through a lockout in the NBA because some teams were losing money and they wanted all teams to make money. we almost sat through a lockout in the NFL because teams wanted to make ‘more’ money.
owners are in it to make money short-term (profits) and long-term (franchise value) while also using the ownership to help their other businesses (like getting the bid to build casinos downtown, etc.)
But that would have been no guarantee that the Indians would have been as dominant, or as successful, as the Yankees. The market size of NY, the inherent international prestige of the Yankees, and the revenue that the Yankees are able to bring in just as a result of these factors is undeniably a huge factor in their recent (i.e., last 25 years) success. If Steinbrenner had been the Cleveland owner, my guess is that it would have flamed out spectacularly during the ’70s under a Billy Martin-type conflict that wouldn’t have allowed the relationship to survive in this locale.
I think only a fool (or a conglomeration of fanatics) would buy a professional sports franchise if he only wanted to win championships and didn’t care about making money. The only owner like this that I think even comes remotely close is Cuban. It just helps that he’s a spectacularly rich man (that, coincidentally, got to be spectacularly rich by knowing how to make money).
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Thanks Mark and Max.
Still a pretty big name to “go after”…right? right? 😉
Sounds like some twisted sports version of It’s A Wonderful Life, Steinbrenner as Mr. Potter, the tribe uprooted to Oregon and the lakefront stadium site now just a tourist trap marina and boardwalk. Hmmm …
Tell that to the federal government
Certainly not, but as has been pointed out, an owner willing and able to spend in the key in MLB
And who would have stopped Mr. Gower from putting the poison in the pills???
It’s the ability more than anything, in my opinion. An owner has to have gobs of money before he’ll really be willing to spend like a Steinbrenner. Steinbrenner got his gobs in large part because he was in NY, not just because he was Steinbrenner.
Not Vic Davillio. Couldn’t, because Vernon Stouffer never found him hitchhiking on the dirt road next to the Venezualan banana farm and Vic never made it to the majors.
not sure that’s correct, Garry. Steinbrenner paid relatively little for his share of theYankees, and then spent tons of his dad’s shipping business money on Catfish, Reggie, et al.before the team value skyrocketed. Would the value of the Indians have ever equalled the Yanks? Nope, but we could have contended until th 1990s when regional cable changed everything. (must … not … get … sucked .. into .. fantasy…)
Solid points. I guess my counter is that I also don’t want to go down the road of fantasizing that the 2012 Indians would have the same story as the 2012 Yankees – particularly considering that it was the regional cable change of the 1990s that greatly made the 2012 Yankees what they are today, with the success that they have enjoyed in the 25 years (approx.) since the YES (No!!) Network launched the Imperial Empire (somewhat redundant, but blame George Lucas) throughout the galaxy.
(I would certainly have enjoyed the success of the Reggie, Catfish, et al. years, though, even if I would have been a little young to really appreciate it.)
Is that a joke? One thing you respect is consistency? Haven’t you been harping on anyone who has suggested keeping Shurmur around for consistency’s sake?
I would expect you to disrespect any “consistency” that doesn’t align with your views, probably by saying something about Kool-Aid or quoting Thoreau or something, i.e., “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”
Cuban also bought a team in a league with fewer players per team and a salary cap.
But that may just prove your point that he is smart.
And the City of Cleveland, apparently!
https://waitingfornextyear.com/2012/01/fair-or-foul-city-of-cleveland-giving-5-million-to-renovate-league-park/
And the City of Cleveland, apparently!
https://waitingfornextyear.com/2012/01/fair-or-foul-city-of-cleveland-giving-5-million-to-renovate-league-park/
Don’t forget, after those two World Series titles in the ’70s, the Yankees didn’t become good again until Steinbrenner was suspended by baseball and the front office could build the team the right way.
And speaking of Catfish Hunter, didn’t the Indians try to sign him when he was a free agent with Oakland? Or at least put in a bid for PR sake?
Or am I misremembering and getting sucked into your fantasy world?
Don’t forget, after those two World Series titles in the ’70s, the Yankees didn’t become good again until Steinbrenner was suspended by baseball and the front office could build the team the right way.
And speaking of Catfish Hunter, didn’t the Indians try to sign him when he was a free agent with Oakland? Or at least put in a bid for PR sake?
Or am I misremembering and getting sucked into your fantasy world?