Game Nine Open Thread: Browns Vs. St. Louis Rams
November 13, 2011While We’re Waiting… The Please Distract Us From the Browns Edition
November 14, 2011
The Cleveland Browns played conservatively and whether they paid the price because of that or because they still just aren’t a very good team is debatable. Â The Browns were attempting to be conservative and win 15-13, but instead lose 13-12 as Alex Mack’s leg got in the way of Ryan Pontbriand’s snap. Â (That’ll teach Mike Polk to show the world his ironic Pontbriand jersey.) Â The snap wobbled back and although Brad Maynard got it down, Phil Dawson shanked the oddly placed ball for a rare miss.
If the Browns had gone for the touchdown and committed a turnover I don’t know if the resulting backlash would have been better or worse. Â For my money, I’ll split the difference. Â I would take at least one pass to the end zone there rather than the constant runs including an extremely ill-advised hand-off to Alex Smith. Â I give Pat Shurmur and the Browns credit for bringing some creativity, but that kind of creativity wasn’t a good look. Â Bottom line today is that the Browns lost a game that they could have and should have won. Â
That doesn’t mean that the Browns didn’t finally find some success against one of the weaker teams on their schedule because they did. Â For once they were able to run the ball with the 4th and 5th string running backs. Â They unleashed the weapons they do have left including some Josh Cribbs runs, an end-around to Greg Little. Â A double reverse pass for 21 yards to backup QB, Seneca Wallace, oh and that horrible handoff to Alex Smith. Â Still, it was a nicely called game by Pat Shurmur for the most part. Â The Browns’ offensive line even gave McCoy enough time at one point to complete a bomb to Greg Little that was about 50 yards in the air.
Even with all that though, the Browns again couldn’t get the ball into the end zone. Â It is getting pretty depressing at this point even as Phil Dawson impresses.
The Browns defense is starting to play the same pattern almost every week. Â Maybe it has to do with the number of rookies on the defensive line, but they start slowly. Â As the game wears on and as Dick Jauron and his staff have a chance to adjust, they start to play better. Â At the end of the day, Steven Jackson’s box score looks decent enough with 127 yards, but on the flip side, the Browns held the Rams passing attack to just 155 yards. Â Another week where the Browns defense does enough to win, but doesn’t get the pleasure of celebrating a victory. Â It must be very frustrating.
So, we’ll dissect this one throughout the week. Â Despite the loss and despite the fact that the Browns still leave a lot to be desired, I think there are some positives (other than the defense) to be drawn from this game to go along with the obvious negatives. Â The Browns didn’t play well, but they seemed to outplay their opponent for the first time in weeks. Â Other than Steven Jackson, I think the Browns had the more impressive game between Colt McCoy and Sam Bradford. Â Brandon Lloyd had a touchdown, but Greg Little had more yards. Â The Browns offensive line can go to bed tonight knowing they enabled Chris Ogbonnaya to peel off a 32 yard run. Â Not many offensive lines can say that, right?
Yes, some of this is tongue in cheek, but not all of it.
While that doesn’t provide much solace to those who hung out on the lake this windy day, it might provide a bit of momentum for the Browns coming out of meetings studying the tape. Â That same tape might also put a few more fears in the defensive staff of the equally woeful Jaguars who bring their 3-6 record to town next week.
It isn’t like you expect Josh Cribbs fumbles and Alex Mack extra point snap blocks to submarine your game. Â Just consider this like a bad round of golf. Â You are miserable heading into the clubhouse, but as you crack your second beer you remember that you did have two pars and that one birdie as you check your schedule to hit the course with your buddies again next week.
78 Comments
@ ben: You’re so right…this team knows exactly what it is doing and how could we have ever questioned them in any significant way? How dare we want this team to look better than a CYO football squad? What nonsense were we thinking?
You’ve got to be kidding me, ben. You like this crap on the field? You see improvement? You’re fine with this train wreck every weekend? Where’s your pride?
I don’t like it. And I don’t see much improvement. But repeating the same garbage everywhere and taking some sort of stupid scorched earth policy to everything is stupid. I can only listen to this Kylie and Booms garbage so much.
Honestly, it’s gotten to the point when I loathe reading the comment section here, I don’t listen to sports radio anymore (yay NPR!), and I won’t read the paper. More often than not, I’m ashamed to associate myself with other Cleveland fans more than I am ashamed to associate myself with the team, itself.
Shurmur may be incompetent, but you a lot of fans are simply idiotic.
@Craig
Rather than typing his name 100 times, please list the reasons you feel Pat Shurmur has demonstrated competency as an NFL head coach. I mean as head coach it’s kind of important that he does so.
@ ben
I go out of my way to read the comments here. I feel the “fans” on this site are a whole lot more intelligent and “get it” then those freaks on cleveland.com.
I am proud of these fans here who are fed up with what has been put in front of us. It is hard, and it is NOT fun to be so critical of the franchise we love…and we deserve better. Ask any of us – we are all in agreement that things must get better – who cares if we have different opinions of how that should be done. At this point, no idea can be called wrong.
The only fan I am ashamed to be associated with, is that dude in front of Mora in the Dawg Pound yesterday with four teeth.
One touchdown in the last 4 games. ONE BLOODY TOUCHDOWN! The Colts offense looks like a well oiled machine… 2 offensive touchdowns (and one pick 6)
@Ben – What is it that you loathe about us?
It’s the incessant “the sky is falling” attitude and repeating the same criticisms week in and out like they are something new.
If I had a nickle for every time someone on the radio has said “We need an offensive coordinator” or “Pat Shurmur is in over his head,” I’d have 8 BILLION nickels.
We already know that we’ll have an OC next year. Let’s stop talking about how we need one and maybe about who it should be? Wallowing in all the filth that is this season and calling for our sixth (or is it seventh now?) overhaul of the team doesn’t benefit anyone.
You know what, ben, you’d make some sense if you truly didn’t see this coming. Can you honestly say that before the season you felt that a first year coach, after the lockout, with no serious offensive weapons (save Hillis, which he forgot about I guess) for day one, would do poorly? Did instead have hope or something that looks like hope in a .500 season?
If so, then you’re delusional. And if not, then you should be questioning these people who masquerade as offensive geniuses/football men who went into this season with their pants around the ankles and did little/nothing to prepare properly. Christ, we don’t even have audibles!
The thing is I absolutely saw this coming. I thought we were a 6-win team AT BEST.
Since I knew this was coming, I’m not surprised and I’m not jumping out of windows like some others. Also, the word “genius” is thrown around the world of football like the word “hot” is thrown around a bar at closing time. It doesn’t mean anything.
Growing pains, man. Really painful growing pains.
Haha, you know, I wish I could go back and say, at the bottom of my post in tiny letters, that “he will say he saw this coming.”
Did you see our predictably offense coming? Did you see a 6-3 win against Seattle coming? Did you see Peyton Hillis, when healthy, not being uses properly? Did you see us flipping the ball to Armond Smith on a crucial fourth down…a week or so before they cut him? Or handing off to Alex Smith this week?
You cannot tell me you saw this level of ineptitude coming.
@oribiasi I for one expected 5-11 at best this year. I expected poor offense while trying to seperate the wheat from the chaff (WARNING: contains mostly chaff)and a defense that would hopefully keep us in some games, given the new talent we’d brought in. I expected Shurmur to reveal that he needs an OC. In short, I expected about what we’ve seen. I hoped for more promise on offense by now, but it is hardly shocking that it hasn’t happened. So I guess I’m just curious as to what you and others offering the “burn this entire operation to the ground and salt the earth” reaction were expecting coming in. You cited all sorts of reasons for expectations to have been low coming in, but the fact that we haven’t been pleasantly surprised is grounds for handing everyone in Berea a pink slip? Yesterday’s loss was embarrassing. So was the Cincy loss. And the titans loss. And the Raiders loss. Heck, even the Seahawks win was embarrassing! I don’t enjoy it one bit. But I hardly think it’s unreasonable or surprising, and I feel this regime deserves more than this season to prove itself as a unit. Why must this make me a moron?
@Ben
Losing is understandable with a lack of talent as we rebuild. Growing pains are understandable. But this seems to go beyond that and it makes me mad and is hard to take as a fan who loves the team.
Please, could you list the reasons that you believe our head coach, who last time I checked is pretty important and worthy of discussion, has shown competency. Please do this so I can understand your point better because I do think you make intelligent arguments.
@ B-bo: Less moron, more hopeless. Why would you ever consider giving this fool more time? Do you enjoy what you’ve seen? Well, you admit you haven’t; what is the simplest way to avoid more of the same…GET RID OF WHAT IS CAUSING THE PROBLEM. It’s so abundantly clear that Shurmur has been out played, out coached, out-everythinged.
I do not recall anyone saying the above, that you expected him to reveal that he needs an OC. Some of us thought it as dumb not to have one, especially following the lockout, but to say it now smacks of revisionist history. A few weeks ago it was “give him a chance, he’s learning,” only now people are saying “Well, we didn’t expect much…” It’s double-talk; many people here knew what kind of identity we were trying to form last year and then it took Shurmur one quarter and 34290329 penalties to bury that.
Final point: you’re not surprised at the lack of creativity on offense? The lack of audibles? Handing it off to Alex Smith? The “left guard area?” You can’t tell me you expected any of this nonsense.
Alright… I get it, everyone is saying Shurmur is not ready to be a head coach. Why? Cause he is not entirely ready to be a head coach. This isn’t an indictment on Shurmur or Holmgren, it’s a reminder the guy is a first year head coach. No one is born knowing how to do this. I remember us cashing out on a young coach named Bill Belichick once upon a time.
So can everyone settle down, admit that besides the Alex Smith disaster, Shurmur called a pretty darn solid game, without a doubt his best of the year. That our offense had wrinkles (that I bet even Jon Gruden didn’t guess), that we got the ball into the hands of our petty excuse play makers and Colt McCoy had a 97 QB rating (and has completed over 60% of his passes in 3 straight games). Sure we scored 12 points, but anyone who watched it saw progress.
The Browns are growing and so is their coach. And they will all get better together
@BrownsFanSF
Does it bother you that in Shurmur’s best game his team failed to score a TD?? Because it should.
Why is it that the Colts’ second string QB’s are intertwined with the fate of the Browns franchise? First it was Jim Sorgi in 2007, now they’ll be screwing us out of a #1 overall pick.
That being said, if the Browns had the #1 pick Andrew Luck would elect to stay another year @ Stanford so I guess it doesn’t matter.
I don’t think he’s a good coach. He certainly hasn’t shown it. I’m just tired of the same old reactions. We can say “he’s terrible!” and “fire him!” every week. But it doesn’t change anything. It doesn’t change the fact that rebuilding AGAIN will suck. Or that we are a below average team again. Or that we are already wasting valuable resources paying coaches we have fired.
I just don’t think we have a lot of options but to ride this one out and hope for the extraordinary. IMO, at this point, the franchise has been crippled more by lack of continuity than by poor coaching.
@Ben
First, that was a very good post! But I would propose that continuity for it’s own sake is a futile endeavor.
Second, what would you like to discuss? There is, as you say, a problem with our head coaching position, which is rather critical to our team’s success. It would follow that fans would be displeased about this and voice their displeasure and list reasons why they feel that way since certain people thing Shurmur will magically change into Mike McCarthy or Bill Walsh over time.
I am fine discussing other things such as solutions to this problem. Here is one: for next year hire a coach who knows what the heck he is doing. There are people available who fit that description. In the meantime, continue to identify what needs fixed and how to fix it. Like get a real coach and a real right side of the line.
Personally, I’m hoping that getting a legitimate OC next year will help to curb some of these issues. Sort of how Mangini’s authority was downgraded, I hope the same happens to Shurmur on the offensive side of the ball.
@Ben
I agree that’s not a bad idea at all. But I still think Shurmur is doing other things to hurt this team like not owning up to the Alex Smith debacle and blaming smith, mismanaging the Hillis situation, seemingly loosing the confidence of his players. These are issues even a great OC would not change.
This team is worse under Shurminator than they were with Mangini. For god’s sake, bring Mangini back. At least he’d try to salvage this season.
@Dennison – The team is literally worse for Shurmur than it was for Mangini. The Steinbach injury is a huge factor and Hillis was a beast last year and while our stanford fullback is alright, he is no Vickers.
I was hoping for a bright shiny new offense under Shurmur too, but his personal is actually pretty significantly worse than it was last year. Those were arguably 3 of our 5 or 6 best players on offense. (best offensive players being Thomas, Mack and… oh god đ )
I do not recall anyone saying the above, that you expected him to reveal that he needs an OC. Some of us thought it as dumb not to have one, especially following the lockout, but to say it now smacks of revisionist history. A few weeks ago it was âgive him a chance, heâs learning,â only now people are saying âWell, we didnât expect muchâŠâ Itâs double-talk; many people here knew what kind of identity we were trying to form last year and then it took Shurmur one quarter and 34290329 penalties to bury that.
Final point: youâre not surprised at the lack of creativity on offense? The lack of audibles? Handing it off to Alex Smith? The âleft guard area?â You canât tell me you expected any of this nonsense.
@oribiasi (and anyone interested)
First off, as much as I may not be enjoying what I see from the Browns this season, I hesitate to call Shurmur a fool. The man has likely forgotten more football than many of us will ever know (too bad he seems to have forgotten the part about offense–BOOM. ROASTED), so I don’t question his intellect. I don’t think this is a matter of a guy who lacks in IQ–football or otherwise. What I’ve seen is a guy who, despite his experience in the sport, is trying to find himself as a head coach. He didn’t help himself by also trying to wear the OC hat, but it seems to me that part of that was not his call–there wasn’t someone out there the organization felt comfortable with, and that’s ok, albeit frustrating. My problem with your proposed solution–blow it up and start again–is that I think it’s a) too simplistic, and b) counterproductive to what I want from this franchise. I find myself drawn to the example of Mike McCarthy in Green Bay, who was similar in many ways. Offensive-minded guy who got his big break and tried to take it all on at once. I recall very clearly the calls for his head in ’06 and ’08, and even in years where they made the playoffs but failed to advance as far as the fans felt they should. Given time to find his identity as the HC, though, the team has hit its stride, and he’s now looked at as a top-flight coach. The big difference, of course, is that Mike McCarthy has been working with a far more talented team from his first day in Green Bay than the Browns have had at any point since their return in ’99. In choosing to build the old fashioned way–via the draft–the Browns have chosen to take the path of greater resistance. But it’s also, from what I’ve seen as a fan, the path of greater results. It creates sustained success, rather than flash-in-the-pan spasms of competitiveness. The Steelers, Pats, and Ravens have done it for years now. The Eagles (under Heckert. no less) have as well. The Packers look to be in that mode now. Forgive me, but I don’t want a year of greatness. I want sustained success, I want talk of a dynasty. And blowing the whole thing up every 1-3 years does nothing–nothing–to accomplish that. It simply means more roster turnover as players are plugged in to new systems and the franchise struggles to develop any identity or continuity.
Call it revisionist or whatever you please, but it was not hard to see that the HC/OC experiment would most likely fail. You speak as though “give him a chance, he’s learning” and “well, we didn’t expect much” are these divergent lines of thought, when they couldn’t be more related. He did deserve the chance to try and to learn, even if the odds were against him, and especially if there wasn’t anyone else out there they felt worthy of the job. But expectations couldn’t have been high, given his track record in STL (right, jimkanicki?). Let’s not pretend Pat Shurmur had an overwhelming amount of talent to work with on the Rams though (Stephen Jackson, Chris Long, James Laurinitis, Sam Bradford. That’s the list, depending on your view of Danny Amendola), and he has even less in Cleveland at the moment. How can we rightfully/fairly/intelligently write anyone completely off when they’ve been playing with such consistently poor cards to this point? Why not give H&H the chance to put together another draft or two like this most recent one and see what Shurmur can do? Worst case scenario: he’s gone by 2014 and we start over again then. But maybe, just maybe, some consistency from Holmgren on down could lead us to something better, something real, something to be proud of. I don’t see the downside in giving it a chance. I do see the downside of going into demo mode every time a coach doesn’t start off with a division title in their first season here.
Finally (and I apologize to those in the “no one cares” camp, I know I’m rambling a bit), the lack of creativity, audibles, etc. Does it surprise me? Frankly, no. It’s an entirely new offensive system being installed with a young QB and a serious lack of playmakers. It should be vanilla. Until you know the basics of the dance–and I mean know them, without thinking–why introduce the advanced moves? I understand adapting to the strengths of one’s personnel, but let’s be real: do we have many? And how many of these skill players will be part of our foundation going forward? The answer to both is “not many”. So keep it vanilla, hammer on the basics, and worry more about teaching than winning. That’s not easy for any coach to do, believe me, and it’s damn frustrating to watch as a fan, but it’s how you build a true winning franchise. The Alex Smith playcall was pure, unadulterated garbage, but I’m guessing Shurmur won’t be trying that again. At least I hope not.
Maybe Shurmur isn’t the next Bill Belichick or Chuck Noll or Paul Brown, but he deserves more than a couple months to show us one way or the other. That’s not me being blinded by loyalty or lacking intelligence. It’s me believing there’s a way to do this type of thing, and wanting to try it for the first time since this team returned to the league.
@B-Bo
I challenge you like I have other people on this thread but have yet to get an answer. Although you can shoot down some arguments please answer this:
If Shurmur had what it takes please list what you have seen that indicates he is a competent head coach. Make a list. If can’t make one longer than a few points that is a huge problem.
@Tim Sure, why not. I have some time before having to do real work today. Now, I assume you don’t expect me to have personal knowledge of the man or his career, and will therefore allow me to use outside sources to help me. For the record, those sources are pro football reference, the official NFL website, and wikipedia (where they conflict, as wikipedia can do, I defer to pro football reference and/or the NFL’s site):
1. 21 years of coaching prior to taking the CLE job
Experience? I’d say so. College, pros, specific positions, the entire offense? Not exactly unimpressive. Is being HC a different animal? Sure. But no one is born with HC experience, know what I mean?
2. 10 years as QB coach
If I’m looking for a guy to help develop my college stud draft pick, or at least see if he’s got the chance to be a stud at this level, this point seems important. Might as well add in the season of working with Sam Bradford, because by all accounts, Shurmur was the guy handling that project as well.
3. 2 years as offensive coordinator (STL)
2010: 26th overall
2009: 29th overall
Hardly impressive, right? Except that one of those years featured a rookie QB at the helm, and Danny Amendola as his chief threat at WR. 2009 featured the Marc Bulger and Kyle Boller as starters and Donnie Avery as the leading WR. Steven Jackson managed to rush for 2,657 yds and 10 TDs on 654 carries in those 2 years though, so the guy is not afraid of a running game when passing fails. Seems wise given the make-up of the Browns offense coming in. And I liked this part in particular:
“He guided St. Louisâ offense to improvements in nearly every category including total yards, time of possession and third-down percentage, while they also scored 114 more points than the previous year. In addition, the Rams committed just 21 turnovers in 2010, tied for the ninth-lowest total in the NFL.”
As they got more talent, his offense performed better. Funny how that works.
Yeah, I know, 3 whole points on my list. I could easily have taken my sub-points and numbered them too for the sake of padding the numbers, but I trust you are looking for substance and not just my ability to make lists and count real high–I hate showing off. Given what is laid out here, I am perfectly ok with Pat Shurmur being given more than 9 games to show what he can do as an NFL head coach. For fun, use the resources I did and compare Shurmur to Mike McCarthy, who I’ve said previously is an interesting parallel, with the exception that McCarthy has had more talent in his time as HC and in his stint as an NFL OC. Their career paths are remarkably similar, and I think we can agree that McCarthy is not some bum off the street.
Hope this was helpful.
@B-Bo
Not bad at all, that’s a good list and it does show that he is experienced as an assistant coach. I guess I mean more of what have you seen this year from Shurmur with the Browns that has made you think he could be good. Like have you seen him call good plays in critical situations. Has he handled the locker room well. Maybe he has helped McCoy get better. I guess that’s kind if what I meant.
I mean there are lots of coaches that have been assistants for a long time but that does not mean they are good head coaches. What has Shurmur done this year that makes you say he had potential. I know McCarthy had talent, but it was obvious he was an excellent play caller even though he was a little rough around the edges.
@Tim
Fair enough. As head coach of the Browns, he has shown very little overall that impresses me. I will say that his playcalling improved in this past game, though the Alex Smith run is inexcusable. And I do question whether the playcalling will continue that improvement (in terms of creativity) against higher-caliber talent. His locker room presence, at least from an outsider’s perspective, has been shaky at best. I don’t blame him entirely for the Hillis fiasco (Holmgren’s “we’re trying like heck to sign him” statement didn’t help at all), but he made his mistakes in all of that. His PR side has been the standard vanilla dullness, full of coach speak and non-answer answers–but personally I don’t demand my HC be a media darling, so that doesn’t bother me. All that said, it strikes me as a guy in his first head coaching gig, trying to find his way. It should surprise/anger/disappoint no one when he falters at this point in the process. I can tell you from experience that being THE guy, as opposed to being A guy on a coaching staff, is not easy, no matter the level of competition. And it doesn’t get much more pressure-filled than being head coach of the Cleveland Browns.
By the way, i am well aware of the success a rookie HC is having in San Fran, but again, talent is a big difference. As is the fact that Harbaugh has been THE guy somewhere already.
So ultimately, I am willing to trust the endorsement of Mike Holmgren (any nepotism-ish issues aside there) that the guy can do it. I am willing to trust that someone with his experience and pedigree can get there. And I am willing to accept that he isn’t there yet. Therefore, I can afford some degree of patience. Whether I am rewarded for that with sustained success for the Browns remains to be seen.
@B-Bo
I like your points, I think you just are more patient than me which is fine by me. It just scares me that he has been so shaky so far. At least other first year head coaches showed signs of positives. Not that I am going to be like the idiots and crazy folk who want Mangini to return, but he got the team disciplined for example right away. But you are right, no choice really but to see how it all plays out!