Game Five Open Thread: Browns at Oakland Raiders
October 16, 2011While We’re Waiting… Bengals Showing Progress, Browns Not and Coaches Get All Testy
October 17, 2011It is one thing to lose football games as the Browns did to the Raiders on Sunday 24-17.  (And no, I don’t care that the Browns had a chance to win after scoring on a prevent and recovering an on-side kick.)  Progress can be made in losses even if we all agree that there is no such thing as a moral victory. If your team is constantly surrounded by distraction due to confusion about the role and health of the team’s most talented offensive weapon, that is something else completely. It is something that should and could be avoided by any functional organization. Meanwhile the Cleveland Browns can’t seem to achieve it with Peyton Hillis.
I think you guys know me well enough to know that I don’t want to talk about this stuff. I just want to talk about football. Somehow these Cleveland Browns handle their business so comically that I am forced to talk about something other than wins, losses, offense, defense and special teams. These Browns seem intent on making that kind of talk impossible.
Peyton Hillis was on the field for the first quarter. Sometime in the second quarter he apparently pulled up a little lame after a screen pass that was called back for penalty. The Browns finished the second quarter with Peyton Hillis on the sideline and no announcement of any kind regarding his status.
The Browns came out of halftime with Hillis holding his helmet on the sidelines. As fans and media alike shook their heads, an announcement was finally made that Hillis had a hamstring injury. Finally, an explanation.
Except the next thing we knew, Hillis was back in blocking for Colt McCoy on passing downs. totally inexplicable. Ponderous, even.
Meanwhile your Cleveland Browns had an opportunity to do battle against a Raiders team led by Kyle Boller after Jason Campbell was knocked out of the game by Scott Fujita with a shoulder injury. Instead of taking advantage, the Browns were playing anemic offense and allowing fake field goals to go for touchdowns.
It would be just a bad game if the Browns just showed up, played as a team and lost. The continuing embarrassing displays combined with the distracting side-show type events makes it nearly unbearable. This team was supposed to be making some progress this season, let alone out of their bye week.  That just isn’t possible if you handle your business as poorly as the Browns did on Sunday in Oakland.
I will never be the guy who sits here and tells you all is lost, but this needs to start with good answers from Pat Shurmur. If he doesn’t have any to offer then Tom Heckert and Mike Holmgren are on call for answers.
I think the Cleveland media bears some responsibility for the whole Hillis mess, but just a little bit.  Let’s not pretend that the Cleveland media can compare to the brutal varieties on the east coast from Boston and New York to Philly. At some point it is up to the Browns to choose their own destiny. As I said on Twitter, I preached patience for this team, and I think they were owed some. At the same time, we just can’t accept dysfunction when the team seemingly has the correct top-down structure from President down.
Cleveland Browns fans aren’t owed instantaneous success. Far from it. Â They are owed some brand of professional football though.
We will have more about the game itself throughout this week whether you like it or not.
(Shurmur – AP Photo/Charles Rex Arbogast – Hillis Cleveland Browns John H. Reid III)
68 Comments
This situation is making me sour on the Browns very quickly.
Coly had 45 attempts today… at least it’s down from the last game but, still too much. Hillis had 6 carries.. this is becoming a circus.
Shurmur has some crap to answer. Reports from “browns sources” said its a coaches decision then quickly switches to o “hamstring” then to blocking out there? Hillis was on the sideline giving the WTF look to shurmur. What a joke.
Hillis is not our most talented offensive weapon.
The Browns are the worst team in football that have all their top players.
Too bad we had to win two games.
Another wasted season. No playoffs. No top draft picks.
Sweet.
I completely agree. I know Shurmur is a rookie head coach but this is ridiculous.
let the excuses begin. ‘shurmur was distracted by hillis and benard.’
bull.
i was not a mangini fan. but give him two weeks to game plan and he thrashed belichick. shurmur had two weeks to prep for this and laid an egg. i defy anyone to show me how his gameplanning/execution improved.
time to ponder the question: do you give this guy 3 years like you did romeo? i’m not seeing anything to say that shurmur is in any way a special head coach.
That was more than pathetic it was down right traitorous!
What hamstring injury, sounds like a screen to dropping Hillis for good.
Must be something personal b/n Hillis and Shurmur, down right ridiculous! The guy that pulls around trucks on the off season on the bench!
Once again the protection was awful of McCoy, but when he had time, he missed, underpassed, passed to double coverage etc. Sorry I know he’s new and all that but he has serious issues. The other teams see McCoy and they know, just rush the sucker, he never looks or changes his plays even though pressure is written all over the defensive play. Shurmur is supposed to be training this guy, hello… anyone out there…?
As for getting burnt on the special teams, sorry but the defensive coordinator….esp on the fake punt, which won them the game, was so avoidable… but then we are are worst own enemies. We almost didn’t even convert the extra point. That game was so winnable, what a waste….
Funny how Coach Mangini got raked over the coals by some for being anal about deflecting potential issues that the media wanted to spin into stories.
And all it took in this case was Shurmur saying,”That was my understanding.” when Hillis sat in a WIN against Miami for the Browns sycophantic media to run with it.
Here we are 3 weeks later and it’s still getting talked about. Know why? Because Shurmur doesn’t know how to put the media in its place and he doesn’t have enough control of the locker room to prevent stuff from leaking.
But today was about other things. Like the continued undisciplined play of this team. It’s sickening when you think about the tremendous strides made in that area the last 2 seasons. Today it was a blown coverage on the big play to Ford, the wide-open fake FG TD, and a 12 men on the field penalty coming out of a timeout.
Shurmur is just starting out, but I have yet to see anything, ANYTHING, that he’s done that gets me excited about the short-term future of this team.
Shurmer Sucks…and so does Holmgren for hiring him…knowing ahead of time there would be a lock-out. I kind of think the Hillis aspect might be part of a league wide crackdown on good but not great players….the issue here is that Hillis was our poster boy after Cribbs…and our great ‘white’ hope. So many people given extensions none of them core players…wonder if maybe Hillis stuck up for Vickers too long…now about that Vickers being gone how is Marecic working out…that is a top down problem from Holmgren-to Heckert-to the field. Were not both Hillis and Vickers fans of Mangini…and did not Mangini ask for Hillis by name in that trade of Quinn…and didn’t they both have great success under Mangini…could this be simply cleaning house of Mangini’s guys? If so why now when in Hillis’s case it really hurts the team on the field?
I would like to know what Holmgren thinks about this. It’s just one game, but the team was coming off of a bye and was supposed to make changes (more Hilis, targets for Moore and Little). He delivered 1 of 3 and the team was not prepared to play in any phase other than punting. That’s Romeo Crenell territory. BTW, who are the leaders on this team? Colt and Fujita? Thomas? Those guys need to take a hard look at what happened today. The play calling is what it is. But the lack of energy and execution and professionalism falls on the locker room leaders.
@6- FG is ST. Jauron has nothing to do with that. but 14 ST points are inexcusable. If the freaking commentators are talking about a fake, maybe the browns should pay attention. He said after “theres some looks the browns give that they can take advantage of.” Really? We are that freaking predictable? How about trying to change things up once in a while. We are getting beat this year by the same things Mangini preached last year.
Agreed Sub. Just look at the “hurry-up O” to see the lack of energy. Any other team in the league can hike the ball within 10 sec from the start of the play clock. The browns look like they just stand around then mosey towards the line and then wait and get in your stance and 15 seconds is gone before McCoy even has a chance to hike. 2 weeks to prepare for this game. The D gives up 10 points (though the last gl stand could have been 3, and the fake fg they were held to 3 as well-after the O fumble). If you tell me our D only allows 10 points, WITHOUT HADEN and we lose I would have called your bluff. I thought the offense would resemble something of an NFL offense, you know given TWO WEEKS to prepare, but instead we cant do crap.
O, I found out how to get the D out of the box. How? put Hardesty in as rb, because the front 4 were stopping him in 3 yards.
From my understanding most of the organization is accustom to throwing 30+ times. We don’t have the personal for that and I wish the coach would have ran it more. Run the ball more.
Run the ball more.
Run
the ball
more.
Completely spot on. You can almost feel the multiple levels of failure. Honestly, I find it incredibly unsettling.
two things:
1) when Holmgren spoke about his rookie QB last year after a few games he said approvingly, “the game is not too big for him.” Seems clear that at least right now the game is too big for Shurmer. The job of HC requires a different skill set than being a coordinator, like having the whole team buy into your program, in-game management, and even effective p.r. that keeps the fans, your boss and your players happy. Maybe Shurmer will be good at this, but he’s not close yet. And doubling as OC seems foolhardy now that it’s clear he is not a natural like other new HCs.
2) Since ’99 I’ve wanted them to develop a signature offense, something the defense knew was coming but couldn’t stop. Whether run-based, pass-based, didn’t care, just make the decision, acquire the right players and install it. I thought that’s what we were doing. I thought the wco played to Colt’s strengths and his college success. The receivers don’t seem to know where they should be, or can’t get there. And now Colt is missing easy throws and looking more panicky at times than he ever did last year. Shurmer either doesn’t know what he wants or is incapable of installing it because of his own bad coaching or lack of personnel. This offense looks like a disjointed mess after a bye week.
I’m fine with losing this year if I see what they’re trying to do. Don’t see it. Right now this looks like a seat-of-the-pants operation.
hardesty cant catch. am i the only one who sees it? why is he in the game on passing downs when he cant catch and he cant pick up the blitz? i think that is why hillis went back in, to pick up the blitz.
Harv, your last two sentences are exactly what I was trying to say too. Unbelievably frustrating after a bye week, especially.
Unless we find a way to sneak 8 wins (i hope we do not for the sake of a top ten pick) Holmgren will have to do what we all thought if this hire (shurmur) does not work out, COACH the team… and if he does not want to do that, he better eat crow, make shurmur a one and done, and hire a proven WEST COAST OFF guy to run this team – the LAST thin this team needed was a rookie HC…
I’d even go further than Harv – I’m not ok with losing this year, especially when I look around our division and see the Bengals at 4-2 with a less experienced QB than we have. No reason why we shouldn’t be a peripheral contender for a wild card.
That said, let’s wait and get all the facts sorted with Shurmer, Hillis, Holmgren (?), etc., before making any wild judgments on the direction of the team.
Also, Shurmur’s failings shouldn’t be a license to write a hagiography about the previous coach. To say that a Mangini-coached team wouldn’t have given up the fake field goal touchdown is probably correct. But it’s likely the case that a Mangini offense may not have been capable of putting up 17 points in a game like this. I’ll take Shurmur going forward, but we have to see more evidence of progress.
Am I the only one that thinks Manginis ravine at least gave us a product worth watching?
If the Hillis/hamstring story turns out to be BS, and Shurmur was just sitting him for some dumb reason, the excrement is really going to hit the fan this week.
I’m really not too user about losing a game that I didn’t expect to win in the first place, but I share many of the concerns voiced here. Say what you want about Mangini, but the guy had a philosophy and an identity that he tried to impress upon the team, with mixed results.
Other than not utilizing his playmakers properly and not running the ball enough, I have no idea what Shurmur is trying to do. Defense is playing well, offense…not so much. Can we make Jauron the head coach and move Shurmur to a coordinator spot?
^^user = upset
@18- Mangini had his own flaws. Rob Ryan was also over-hyped, and I think our D is much improved in the 4-3. We need quicker OLBs, but overall I think we are improved on D.
humboldt I agree that we should be competing. The Bengals have a brand new offense just like us, a brand new qb and they seem completely competent. We have no identity and no go-guy or play. Colt shows that he cant throw and complete passes under pressure which makes the OL look worse then it really is. We are extremely predictable and cannot move the ball until the prevent D comes out. Its very frustrating to watch, and it needs to be fixed and people need to own up to their faults.
@ Buckeye- That would do nothing but switch titles. It would still look the same, and Jauron as HC is not pretty (as shown in his brief stints).
I haven’t lived in Cleveland for over fort years, but the browns are my team…Not living there, I don’t get all the gossip/details on what’s going on with individual players…so the Hillis situation doesn’t bother me on any basic level…dude had a strep throat – seems like it would be tough to play…whether he got advice from his agent or his mom is not relevant. We won that game, and everything should be put behind us and move forward…we did not move forward today…this game was regression on an epic scale.
We’ve got young guys with some enough talent that we should be showing improvement every game – I think McCoy’s a winner – he had a lousy day for the most part, but face it – He’s not calling the plays…Hillis demonstrated last year that he’s got the talent to pick up the slack, but Holmgren will not ever let him be the featured back… caste football at its most idiotic…Montario? If you’re runnin’ a WC offense you need a back who can catch the ball! Montario’s just not good at it.
And Shurmur? Two weeks to prepare for a second-tier team with their own distractions this week and this is his BEST?!?!?! I’m not one for screamin’ about firing the coach every week, but this guy is beginning to make Romeo look like Vince Lombardi.
Guy runs KO back 100 yards? – It happens.
Fake FG? – It happens.
But when it happens to us in the same game, it’s an embarrassment.
I’ll be geeked as ever by next Sunday, but in the meantime, someone’s got some splainin’ to do.
Don’t look at me…..I never wanted to get rid of the last coach.
I just hope our local Browns beat reporters can bring themselves to question the new regime with some ferocity after firing all of their bullets with the last coach.
In the meantime, let’s hear some more about how focusing on special teams is a waste. #grossiisalwayswrong
“I never want to do this again”
-Mike Holmgren after hiring Pat Shurmur.
After witnessing the Colts thing this year, and watching the Browns for the past 12 years, one thing is clear to me. The only season we have won double-digit games (2007) is when we had a tall, strong armed QB who could rifle the ball. I like McCoy, but he is not it. I have no doubt that you put a healthy Peyton Manning, or Drew Brees, or Aaron Rodgers on this team and they are a 10-12 win team. So to me the plan of action is clear…every first round pick should be spent on a QB until we get it right. Until we fix that, it doesn’t matter the coach, or the drama with RBs, or 3-4 or 4-3…you need to cure the QB spot. Keep picking them until you get it right….worst case is that we have a bunch of 3-5 win seasons, which we are already used to.
I am personally starting the “Suck for Luck” campaign in Cleveland.
In fact, with the way they talk about Luck – I’m willing to go all Ditka-esque and trade our entire draft for his rights.
Nothing will change, nothing else matters, until we get a QB. Period.
@26.. we can always suck for osweiler in 2013…
“build for the future!”
Lazy, uninspired, heartless, selfish, undisciplined, lackluster underachievement two games in a row not seen since Romeo. Nice move. Holmegren.
DP, obviously 12 years of football has not been enough for you – i appreciate your opinion and glad you are a browns fan but if you think LUCK would change our problems you have another thing coming…
Those guys you mentioned would probably win that many games or more on most teams, there are 32 teams, not everyone can have such a special QB.
Remember; Dan Marino never won a superbowl, Trent Dilfer did…
Colt may or may not be the guy, i have been around long enough i have seen this movie before, but regardless we have to continue to build a TEAM and hope one day through proper drafts/personnel moves we will be able to create our own luck’
I’d suck a lot of things for sustained double-digit wins.
Is that dedication?
until then……
we wait for next year 🙂
J – I get it….but let’s be honest though, Dilfer didn’t “win” a super bowl, he was the QB on a super bowl winning team – we all know how the Ravens won that year, and while that can happen, it’s rare.
And I know Marino never won one, but he was a winner…and his teams were contenders more often than not.
I know not every team can have a special QB…that is actually my point. If Luck isn’t it, then pick a new QB in the first round again….and again…and again until you do find the one. Point is, after 12 years of doing that chances they find one are a whole lot better than doing what we’ve been doing…and if we don;t find one by then, how is it any different from what we’ve been watching???
We’ve had one double-digit win season since we’ve been back, and that was with a career year by Derek Frickin’ Anderson. If anything that showed it doesn’t take much….just a tall QB with a powerful arm who can lace passes on the money from distance.
I like McCoy…but he is not it. And it doesn’t matter what we change, front office, head coach, OC, line, RB, WR, defensive scheme…etc, none of that matters until we find our own “special” QB. That has to be priority #1, and there is no #2.
Umm… I do think Browns fans are owed some sort of instantaneous success. Because after 12 years of being back in the NFL, this is till a 5-11 team. You can’t possibly tell me that this team is headed in “the right direction.” They played like bums today and deserved to lose. Period.
I’m at a loss as to what this team could possibly do, moving forward, that would lead me to believe there is any hope at a better year next year. This was an ugly loss to a one-dimensional team. We KNEW they were going to run the ball all day. Yet we allowed them to do it with ease.
5 games in to the season and I’m about ready to throw in the towel. Seriously – playoffs are completely out of the question. What else is there to play for? Pride?
This team has none.
It’s all about passing the eye test. You can tell after a half, who is a real NFL QB, and who isn’t. Colt simply doesn’t have the arm, or the height.
Yeah Dilfer won a SB and Marino didn’t….but I know if you had a choice as to who would QB your team you would pick Marino in his prime over Dilfer in his prime.
You need a QB that is a real NFL QB…someone who can get it done…then you take your chances in the playoffs that luck (no pun intended) is on your side.
I guess what I’m saying is, no more 3rd round QBs. Yeah I know about Brady, and that’s great and all….but we need first round talent at QB. A real deal guy who will be here for the next decade. By all accounts Luck is the next one….but if he isn’t, or if we can’t get him, then keep picking QB in first round until we do get it. 12 years of that will end up being more fruitful than the past 12 years….and once you do find it, you are set for 12 sustained years.
… So now that Hillis himself has come out and admitted that, yes, he WAS hurt on the second carry of the game, exactly how many of you are now going to be honest enough to admit your mistaken rants on this string about him and Shurmer (at least as far as handling Hillis is concerned)? it’s Shurmer’s fifth game as a coach, McCoy is under siege because the Steinbach injury threw the OL into more havoc than anyone would like to admit, the team has no #1 receiver and an exceedingly raw prospect, the special teams are a mess — and YET they STILL closed to within a score, McCoy is a totally different and very good QB in the no-huddle, the D basically shut out the Raiders after the first drive, and they’re 2-3 despite of everything.
Yeesh.
This is what happens when you let a rookie head coach who is in way over his head call the offensive plays. I’m so sick of 4 yard passes. I’m sick of Hillis on the sidelines. Shurmur better get his act together because a loss like this is on the coaching staff. Whatever issue he has with Hillis needs to end because trust me fans in this town will favor Hillis over him any day. At least Mangini teams were prepared.
I can’t be certain, but it’s starting to look like the tank is on. I didn’t want to believe it before, but I think they want to stay mediocre this year and trade their two first round picks for Luck, no matter who actually lands the #1 overall pick.
My real question is, if Mangini got 2 years… how long does this guy get ? -5 games ?
Maybe a bit strong but, this is Butch Davis bad.
@ C-Bus Kevin
While it would suck in the short term, in the long term it would be the best thing to ever happen to this post-1996 franchise.
@37edgewater — do NOT bring that steinbach injury crap in here. after it was known that steinbach was gone, the pats and ravens signed former all-pro linemen FAs while the browns stood pat. that excuse is utter b.s. heckert chose not to improve the line in spite of ample cap room and with full knowledge of pashos’ unreliability.
when the team decides to suck in a particular position, it behooves the fan not to use that position’s suckitude to excuse the team’s suck.
Browns have just 8 plays of 20+ yards through 5 games this season. That’s the worst in the nfl… And we have an “offensive minded head coach”. Apparently that means dinking and dunking. Tom Heckert has had 16 draft picks. Just one (colt mccoy) has scored an nfl td to this point and even he (colt) has the worst passing yards per attempt in the nfl.
You can say its early but this holmgren regime hasn’t shown anything unless u count its inability to secure a franchise qb and hire an inept head coach. Even the bengals, 49ers are light years ahead. For 50mil over 5 years holmgren is collecting a retirement check. Jake delhomme is still thanking him for his generosity.
Mismanaged. Out-coached. Dumb football.
Unconscionable decision making in terms of both player personnel and in-game strategy. If the Browns were a publicly traded company (which they should be, in my opinion) these issues would either not be happening or there would actually be an institutionalized system of accountability for performance. Ultimate problem is that the stakeholders (read: fans) are not shareholders and the only mechanism for accountability is through the media which is either cast as sensationalist or just outright ignored by management in earnest (sorry WFNY, commentators, et al, but a blog isn’t a means of affecting real change for a business – and yes, fully aware of the irony in my posting this).
with the current construct of the system, we do ourselves a disservice with our loyalty. Motivators for C level management (which directly effects product) are dollars and cents for a private company. Cleveland fans have destroyed market signals with their unwavering allegiance. Yes, the organization attempts to win regardless, and the pressure is undoubtedly palpable for all affiliated individuals, however there remains a chasm in the overall structure in regard to communication between the fans (who give the organization its financial support and ultimately its credit) and management.
Randy Lerner needs to sell the team. It is not enough to have a trust fund and hire someone to manage your organization regardless of how many Super Bowls he may have won if he isn’t financially vested in the success of the franchise.
In summation, who wants to buy the Browns with me and transform the team into a publicly traded franchise? Chip in $50 bucks and I’ll double your investment.
Ok you people that are blasting Holgrem and Heckert are completely out of your minds and are the reason Cleveland fans get such a bad rap all over the country. Let it go. Its 5 games. 2 days ago everyone was saying how great hes drafting with 13 of 16 starting or something like that. How can you change your minds so fast? If we dont win another game this year and next then maybe you have a point. MAYBE! Until then sit behind your computer desk and stop criticizing everyone all the way up to the damn waterboys. We suck. Period. Deal with it or go apply to be the GM.
Holgrem.. Holmgren. whatever. Ugh now im gonna get blasted cause I cant spell. Damn Browns fans. 🙂
gosh, chris i’m really sorry that i made the current coach unqualified and unprepared. i’ll try to be a better fan in the future. mmm-K?
i’m sorry i was mean to derek anderson. i guess i wasn’t patient enough with romeo… too bad we didn’t give him more time. i know last years team beat two of the top five teams in the league but i should accept that we’d be much less prepared and less able to run a pro football offense this year. i didnt realize that until now. i guess i’m a jackass for thinking that there would be year-over-year improvement. thank you for pointing out the real problem here. me. for paying attention. and caring. ill try not to give a crap about the football team’s performance. do you have a pink breast cancer awareness wrist band that i may purchase as a penance?
It appeared to me that Hillis returned in the fourth just to keep Colt from getting killed. I’d think it’s possible to block standing up with a pulled hammy which is what he did. The worst part about the whole thing is the upcoming week of repeatitive bitching, moaning, and general negativity of the fans and media.