Da Clip Show: Back to Back Champs And Mike Sarbaugh Is AWESOME Edition – 9/20/11
September 20, 2011While We’re Waiting… Buckeye QBs, Thomas and Freeney and Rocky Colavito
September 21, 2011The Cleveland Browns currently stand at 1-1 on this young season. Were it not for the defense falling asleep at the wheel, there’s a pretty good chance the team would be 2-0.
The Browns didn’t look particularly good in either game, but they were still good enough that they should have won game one and they did find a way to win game two. Sometimes it can be hard to really quantify exactly what the Browns’ problems are. What area is the team still lacking in?
Everyone probably agrees the team needs plenty of help at WR. Depth on the OL and DL are issues. The Browns could use at least another CB to play opposite Joe Haden, and the Browns could use an upgrade at LB in terms of adding a physical freak. It seems like most people would mention a lot of positions before they got to QB Colt McCoy. But is Colt a bigger problem than we realize?
There’s no question McCoy had a rocky start to the season against Cincinnati, but he rebounded with a nice game against the Colts. In that game against Indianapolis, Colt was 22-32 (68.75%) for 211 yards with 1 TD and 0 INT. That was good for a very respectable 97.3 QB rating. On the season now McCoy is completing 56.9% of his passes with 3TD and 1 INT. His rating of 82.2 isn’t great, but he is one spot below Joe Flacco and one spot above Eli Manning in the rankings.
So it’s not like McCoy is looking like a bust. He’s not at all. In fact, I believe that he has the potential to develop into a very good NFL starter. But is that good enough to one day make the Browns Super Bowl contenders? Or are the Browns doomed to be perennial playoff chasers with McCoy at the helm?
This question came up this weekend as I was discussing the Browns with one of my friends. He mentioned how we always wondered what would happen if you put Tom Brady or Peyton Manning on the Browns. Would it matter? Could they make the team any more competitive?
We might be seeing our answer this season. Without Peyton Manning, the Indianapolis Colts quite frankly look like…the Browns. The receiving corps is the same. Joseph Addai is still the RB. Nothing has really changed with the Colts, except Peyton Manning is no longer their QB. Without him, the team looks downright pedestrian. No imagination on offense, getting even a first down is a chore, and the defense looks more suspect than usual.
Those on the other side of the argument would point out that the Patriots lost Tom Brady a couple years ago and still were able to thrive with Matt Cassel at QB. But thrive isn’t really the right word. The Patriots did go 11-5 that year, but they also missed the playoffs. The previous year they went 16-0 with Tom Brady, and after a 10-6 season in which Brady wasn’t yet back to full health, the Patriots returned to form at 14-2 in Brady’s first healthy season back.
The difference between the Colts and Patriots might be the difference between Matt Cassel and Kerry Collins. Which goes back to the question about Colt McCoy. Is Colt McCoy another Matt Cassel, a guy who is good enough to be the starting QB on a playoff caliber team? Or does he have the potential to be a Super Bowl winning QB like Tom Brady?
Look at the last 10 QBs to win the Super Bowl:
2010 – Aaron Rodgers
2009 – Drew Brees
2008 – Ben Roethlisberger
2007 – Eli Manning
2006 – Peyton Manning
2005 – Ben Roethlisberger
2004 – Tom Brady
2003 – Tom Brady
2002 – Brad Johnson
2001 – Tom Brady
I suppose it’s debatable how elite Ben Roethlisberger really is, but I consider him to be in the elite class. I would argue that only 2 QBs outside the elite class have won the Super Bowl in the last 10 years, Brad Johnson and Eli Manning.
Is this just indicative of the last decade? Consider the previous 10 Super Bowls:
2000 – Trent Dilfer
1999 – Kurt Warner
1998 – John Elway
1997 – John Elway
1996 – Brett Favre
1995 – Troy Aikman
1994 – Steve Young
1993 – Troy Aikman
1992 – Troy Aikman
1991 – Mark Rypien
1990 – Jeff Hostetler
So here I would say that Dilfer, Rypien, and Hostetler were outside the realm of elite QBs. But again, in order to win a Super Bowl, you probably ought to have an elite QB.
The Browns will have plenty of time to address this question and to evaluate Colt McCoy. I am not here to say that McCoy can’t be an elite QB someday. I’m willing to let him prove himself and to find out for sure what his potential is.
The bigger question that I am asking, then, is what would happen if the Browns did have an elite QB right now? Is it possible the Browns could be a lot better team than they currently appear to be?
I don’t have the answers, these are just the kinds of questions I ponder with my friends. So I turn it over to you, our faithful readers: Do you think Colt McCoy can be a Super Bowl winning QB? If not, how long should the Browns wait to address this? And do you think that an elite QB on the team this year would make the Browns a threat to win the division and be a Super Bowl contender?
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Photo Credit: (Photo by Scott Boehm/Getty Images)
40 Comments
if the Browns had Tom Brady right now, then they would be 100X better on offense. I do not think there is any question about that.
Well, given that McCoy has started less than a season’s worth of games at QB, I’m willing to wait on giving an answer. I can tell you the things that I like are his accuracy, his leadership, and his drive to get better. He reminds me a lot of Drew Brees in that way, and like Drew Brees he will probably need more time to develop. In fact, it’s probably a good idea for everyone to head to ESPN’s stat page for Drew Brees to remind themselves that it almost always takes a few years before a QB can reach elite status, and until that time you really don’t know if he’ll get there. For Brees it was his 4th year in the league and 3rd year as a starter where he made the jump. However I will say that I do strongly believe that Colt McCoy, if he can be durable, can be elite. He has the right components.
It’s the Holmgren/West Coast way. Read The Blind Side, and see how it discusses how Walsh viewed Montana and QBs in general, then think about the Seahawks under Holmgren. The belief is that the system is what’s important, and the QB merely needs to be accurate and relatively smart and protected by a great LT, to the point that Walsh pulled Montana in an NFC Championship because Young was a mobile lefty who would see the rush coming and escape it.
McCoy reminds me a lot of Matt Hasselback when he was younger: Accurate, well-regarded but not considered elite, reasonably mobile but not a runner, good reads, very accurate. And he led a team to a Super Bowl with a power RB and a lot of no-name WRs and a great LT, and a solid defense built around the line and secondary.
Sound familiar?
If the Browns had Tom Brady or Peyton Manning they would be better but I’m not sure by how much. They would still need receivers to catch the passes. Aaron Rodgers would be a better fit because of the WCO but even then, the receivers have to catch the ball. They are also all seasoned veterans and I, like the author, am willing to give Colt time to grow, learn and prove himself. This is a very young team that will hopefully grow up strong together and be consistent winners!
yep, Colt is still in the learning phase. he certainly can continue to develop and get into the elite status, but he has a very long road ahead of him (as currently, he’s a bottom 1/3 QB – and I like him a great deal and think he will progress)
[Soap box alert] I’m so done with the phrase “Super Bowl Winning QB.” The last time I checked, one player does not win the Super Bowl – anymore than a pitcher “wins” or “loses” a baseball game (another misleading and erroneous statistic).
Can Colt McCoy win a Super Bowl? Sure, but not with this combination of 52 other players he’s presently TEAMED with.
Maybe we “probably ought to have an elite QB” to win the Super Bowl, but I actually think the better question is to ask whether the Browns can form a TEAM that can win the Super Bowl (with McCoy at QB). The better comparisons are those teams that won without the “elite” QBs; the teams that won with E. Manning, Dilfer, Johnson, etc. (and I would include Rothlisberger in that group). Can the Browns form a team of 53 that compares to those teams? Now that, in my opinion, is the right question. If that’s the question that is asked, then I would say that certainly McCoy is as good as those QBs on those teams, and could therefore “win” a Super Bowl.
I have no idea if McCoy will ever be an elite QB, but it is too early to say he is not. Even during his tough start last week against the Bengals, his numbers are on par with elite NFL quarterbacks in their 9th start ever. Here is the proof:
Colt McCoy
19 for 40 – 47.5% completion % – 213 Yards – 2 TDs – 1 INT – 70.1 QB RATING
Peyton Manning
22 for 42 – 52.4% completion % – 140 Yards – 1 TDs – 2 INT – 47.7 QB RATING
Tom Brady
15 for 21 – 71.4% completion % – 107 Yards – 1 TDs – 1 INT – 78.9 QB RATING
Drew Brees
12 for 20 – 60% completion % – 139 Yards – 0 TDs – 2 INT – 41.5 QB RATING
Aaron Rodgers
15 for 26 – 57.7% completion % – 142 Yards – 0 TDs – 0 INT – 72.9 QB RATING
Ben Roethlisberger
10 for 16 – 63% completion % – 134 Yards – 0 TDs – 1 INT – 63 QB RATING
Tony Romo
16 for 33 – 48.5% completion % – 249 Yards – 1 TDs – 2 INT – 58.8 QB RATING
If you’re going to bring up Ben Roethlisberger, then you should, in all fairness, point out that Ben is has a lower passer rating than Colt McCoy right now. McCoy also outranks Donovan McNabb at the moment, for whatever that’s worth.
Whether or not McCoy will eventually be a Super Bowl champ, he’s not hurting the team right now. Maybe he’s a stopgap until we’ve built up a great defensive side and some receiving threats, but that doesn’t mean we should be looking to replace him.
I am all for giving McCoy a shot. That’s said, were we to end up with the number one pick come April, I’d draft Andrew Luck in a heartbeat. Maybe Colt could be the guy, but I like my chances with Luck a whole lot more.
So here’s a question… how sure are we about the fact that it’s the receivers’ fault that our passing game isn’t better? I’d love to see a breakdown of a couple of plays to see if McCoy is making the proper reads, going through progressions, and making accurate throws versus our receivers being unable to get separation. Is that blasphemous? I still love Colt… he’s just basically a rookie QB and they take time to make the right reads/throws.
Comparing McCoy to the elite QB’s currently operating in the league seems to be the hot topic of late and it baffles me.
How you anyone can say he will or not be elite just isn’t possible at this junction in his playing time.
Instead of holding him to the like of Brees, Manning, Brady and Rodger which makes you feel uneasy because you dont know, do this…….
Compare him to the endless line of young QB’s that have failed here over the last 11 years; Couch, Frye, Anderson, Quinn.
Now how do you feel? Better? Thought so.
Out of the last 11 years of QB’s that have been drafted as “the future” or brought in as “the veteran” Colt makes me feel way better steering the ship than any other.
Why can’t we forget the microwave pizza, win ten seconds ago mentality and watch him develop with great leaders around him?
Why does he have to be Brady now?
Oh yeah, cause it’s Cleveland and we are the most desperate for a win fanbase in the country. 🙂
A common thread among all of those average QBs is that they all had exceptional defenses (Bucs, Ravens, Giants and Redskins). It seems as though either formula can win a SuperBowl – an average to good team with an exceptional QB; or an exceptional defense with an average to good QB. Problem, as I see it, is that the Browns don’t have an exceptional defense.
@Christopher – Hey, at least we have a QB we *aren’t* forced to compare to Couch, Frye, Anderson, et al. 🙂
It is sad to be this bad for so long and never be able to get an elite passer in a league that has exploded into a pass frenzy that seems destined to linger…
…even more shameful that Andrew Luck is on his way to somewhere like Cincinnati or Indianapolis or not Cleveland.
If the Colts get Luck, I will vom.
If Browns offensive play calling keeps the same route of blunders, we will be in contention for the #1 draft pick, that is a fact.
Colt has done nothing to worry Browns fans. In fact, he has done much more to reassure the Browns fans. Like Christopher has said: Think back on who we have had the past decade at QB. How can anyone be worried right now.
His accuracy and intelligence will take him far. His mobility will keep him a viable option as well.
On a related note.
TO is still available. Can we get a bargain basement price for this guy? Is it worth it?
This is a dumb question to be asking ourselves. All offseason Colt was doing the right things to prepare himself and his offensive teammates for this season. He is only in his second year, and frankly, he is the best leader at QB this team has had in a very long time. Can we PLEASE give Colt some time to prove himself before we start freaking out about what it takes to win a Super Bowl? Remember, we still have to make the playoffs and be a playoff team before we can even dream of winning the Super Bowl. Worry about Miami, Tennessee and Oakland and then we will see what Colt is made of.
Anyway, as much as I would love to go and defend Colt more, I agree that we need help across from Haden and more importantly, the LB position. As of right now we have an aging veteran, an injury prone serviceable starter and an overacheiving mediocre player at best. Let’s not kid ourselves by acting like they are better than they are, what the Browns need to do is adress this position in the draft. Holmgren/Heckerts’ frist draft was a lockdown CB and a hardhitting SS. Second draft was a run stuffing mammoth and a pass rusher. In this draft, especially with two picks, we should go with an athletic freak MLB who is relentless and tackles everything. Vontaze Burfict. And then with the Atlanta pick, we go with the son of a Cleveland Great, CB Chase Minnifield. All of a sudden we have a great, young defensive core in TaylorGang and Rubinator at DT, Sheard at DE, Burfict in the middle, Minnifield across from Haden and Ward in the back. All of a sudden, we have the youngest core of defense in the NFL. Thats what we should be thinking about, and not whether or not Colt will ever be a Super Bowl winner
Start with the D.
It’s way too early to worry about Colt. At worst, he is an unknown, and at best I see him being a poor man’s Brees (just doesn’t have the arm strength). Bigger fish to fry, and I say LINEBACKER – all things being equal, but I still think you gotta just take the best player available except if they are maybe a LT or DT.
because of that, I TOTALLY agree with B-bo at 9 – Jump ALL OVER LUCK if we can. Also wouldn’t mind that freak WR at OkSt right now.
Here’s what may be a silly question, but if we end up with a top 6 draft pick again this year (which I think we’ll be better than that) don’t we just move it for a whole bunch of draft picks like we did last year? Given how many holes we have to fill wouldn’t we be better suited to fleece some desperate team and stockpile good solid draft picks. It takes 30 solid players to win the Super Bowl. I think you trade that pick’ fix the right side of the line, pick up a few good linebackers and build a complete team. I guarentee that any of those elite QBs are elite for A) finding themselves in the perfect situation to suceed and/or joining teams with either elite weapons or an elite defense. This allows them to grow and learn with a safety net instead of jumping into the fire. Give Colt time, even Peyton Manning struggled in his first few years.
aren’t we tied for first place?
Bringing up the Bucs’ SB. What did Brad Johnson haver as offensive weapons? Well, he had Mike Alstott and Michael Pittman. Johnson also had Keyshawn to catch his passes, and Martin “Automatica” Gramatica kicking 3s if a drive stalled. Aside from them, his weapons have faded into obscurity. McCardell? Dilger? Jurevicius? Alstott and Keyshawn were the only offensive players whose names had ANY traction outside of Tampa Bay. So, what else did he have?
He had Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Greg Spires, Derrick Brooks, John Lynch and Ronde Barber forming the core of a truly deadly defense. It might be too early to compare our current front 4 to Tampa’s best; but I can easily see D’Qwell as Brooks, Joe Haden as Ronde, and TJ Ward as Lynch. Back on the O-Side, Peyton Hillis is far better than Big Mike. Hardesty could be better than Pittman. While no single player on the Browns rises to Keyshawn’s level, Watson and Moore form a duo that Tampa never had.
Gotta love Browns fans. It’s week three, and we can’t help but look forward to the draft. The way I see it, the team is 1-1. That’s tied for 1st in the division with 14 games to play including 5 divisional matchups.
Maybe this is me starting to feel a bit more mellow, but I find that I enjoy my fandom a lot more when I approach every season as if the Browns can make the playoffs. After all, it’s not like H&H call me up to ask about trades and draft picks.
Just a thought…but why don’t we save the “what should the Browns do moving forward?” questions until after they are out of the playoff race?
@1 no one is going to argue about tom brady being the best qb in the game now. he’s the best i’ve but the ‘best ever’ debates are always silly.
but take note: he plays behind a real o-line. light, mankins, vollmer are pro-bowlers. they lost koppen last week… good thing they had the foresight to go get future HOFer waters. meanwhile we picked up oneil cousins and artis hicks. RUFKM?
i get so tired about hearing about our weak WR corps or soft RBs (pre-hillis). the success of either WRs or RBs is determined by the strength of the o-line. we’re in the 5th year of ‘replace ryan tucker.’ our starting guards had played 3 nfl games between them starting the season.
show me a SB QB and i’ll show you no less than two pro-bowl o-linemen and usually 3 and an HOFer.
seriously:
shula dolphins… 2 HOFers… langer, little, kuechenburg, evans.
lombardi packers… 2 HOFers, gregg-kramer + gillingham, skowonski
staubach cowboys: neely, scott, donovan
madden raiders: 3 HOFers.. shell, upshaw, otto,
Theisman Redskins: May, Grimm, Jacoby, Bostic
Montana Niners: Oates Sapolu Wallace Burton
Young Niners: Quillan, Cross, Fahnhorst
90s Steelers: Dawson, Searcy, Haselrig
00s Steelers: Faneca, Marvel Smith, Dawson
Pats: Woody, Koppen, Light, Mankins
80s Giants: Elliot, Roberts, Oates
00s Giants: Snee, Diehl, OHara
Second offensive system and head coach he’s had to learn in as many years, so-so receivers, spotty OL, a running game that is still finding it’s legs, and McCoy himself is a second year player. It’s far, far too early to determine his long-term value yet. He is good right now; whether or not he will be great is a determination that requires too many variables we don’t know yet. Simple as that.
Hi Al,
I am an outsider in all off this other than that I have been living in Austin TX for the last 13 years. I am originally from Germany and naturally don’t much knowledge about american football. However i have to to tell you that I did follow the sport in detail in order to understand what makes a wining team. UT football has been spoiled like many large collages with good athletes. I have seen Vince Young single handed win it all, Ricky Williams develop, Chris Sims grow up, Major Appelwhite being a fan superstar all to falter in the NFL or not even make it. However Colt McCoy is very different. I never met the guy myself, but he stands for his word. You will never find a harder working guy, he will relentlessly try to make the browns a better team. he believes it’s fate that he is with the browns and so do I. Give him some time and you will be in for a treat. He broke some many NCAA records it’s unbelievable, people tend to forget, and all of them were saying he is to small, not enough arm strength, etc.
Have some patience and let him develop plus let Holmgreen and the coaches add key pieces and you will be happy. I for myself bet on the browns making the playoffs this year.
prosperity to all of you.
p
The problem with Cleveland the past 11 years is you guys keep wasting your first pick on a QB, in vain hopes of landing the elite QB and then not giving him time to develop. That is a lot of draft picks that could have been used in other areas. It takes time to build a team and more than just a QB. If Cleveland is Lucky they will pass on Luck and address o-line and d-line needs in the first round coming up. Geez you got to give a QB a few years in the NFL before he can be great… which is probably one reason why Holmgren wanted McCoy to sit out last year.
Well, Colt was a third round pick so I don’t think he could ever be described as a bust even if he never played a down. Seeing that he will finish his second year as a starter this year, I would already call him a great investment for the spot he was picked. That’s why it was just a good pick.
Next, I would put #7 from the steelers in the non elite category. He certainly did not win those super bowls and actually tried to lose them. He is where he is because he has a defense that gives him short fields and turns his numerous mistakes into field goals at the very worst. I’ll take Eli everything else being equal.
Gotta believe in Holmgren and Heckert…
@26 – “The problem with Cleveland the past 11 years is you guys keep wasting your first pick on a QB, in vain hopes of landing the elite QB and then not giving him time to develop.”
What are you talking about? Tim Couch is the only “first pick” QB we have taken over the past 11 years. Brady Quinn was a first rounder, but not our first pick. Couch was given ample time to develop over 4 years (not totally his fault on those teams), and Quinn pretty clearly doesn’t have “it”, or he would be starting in Denver.
McCoy is the best young QB we have had here in 20 years…and he has started 9 games. Nine. Barely half a season. Considering that, and the fact that he is learning a new offense under a new coach with limited offensive weapons, I would say he is doing just fine. Put the right pieces around him, and he will be a top 10 QB in my opinion, and the Browns will be a playoff team. I’m going to save the speculative Super Bowl talk until we actually make the playoffs. One step at a time…
Like the leadership, work ethic and desire to get better. Pretty good for a QB who has not even played a full season. I feel like Colt will excel in the WCO. Let’s enjoy this season before all the draft talk.
I agree with a previous comment, Colt’s ceilling is probobly pretty close to Hasselback in his prime. Is that good enough to win a SB in the current NFL? Maybe…
Also, it’s not too early to evaluate if Colt can be elite or not. You can already tell he doesent have the type of arm to do what Brady, Brees and Rogers do, or even Stafford, Bradford, people like that. But he is accurate, takes care of the football, and has a decent arm. But his inability to push the ball deep down the field with consistency could be something that caps his potential.
Why do people keep comparing Colt to Brees with less arm strength? Drew Brees fell in the draft for the same reason that Colt McCoy did… his size and his perceived lack of arm strength. Brees ended up both having better arm strength than people realized, and he was probably able to add strength in the NFL. I feel like Colt has better arm strength than people realize (check the throw to MoMass last week) and that he’ll continue to add strength. It’s a complete non-factor in my opinion.
Also, I love how many people are calling out others for not giving Colt time to grow. Actually, if you read the comments, nobody has said that… everybody, including the author of this article, thinks he needs time to mature, and they’re right.
To further my point. “Brees was rapped for his size, relative lack of arm strength and because he played in an offense built for him.”
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/2001/draft/news/2001/04/21/chargers_draft_ap/
Too bad nobody will read this since I’m making a comment on yesterday’s article… it just bugs me when people throw out statements as known fact without doing any research.
As for how much time we should give to McCoy to develop I think that by the end of next year (after SB47) we should have a decent idea. But what will interest me is how he will develop and progress. Especially if the FO adresses the WR corps issues. We have some good players Haden Thomas watson cribbs and it seems Taylor and sheard. McCoy is the biggest question mark and unlike a lot of people is a make or brake player for the franchise. When you look at it QB is undoubtedly the most important position on the field and in any sports. Citing roethlisberger as an average qb is just a lie just look at what he does on the field… Even though he is an a-hole as a person and plays for the steelers.
So I’ll give the kid some time to develop but he’d better become great haha
I completely agree with Christopher. Fans of other teams are puzzled with my appreciation of Colt McCoy. They see a short QB with a weak arm. I see the guy who followed garbage. I was so excited to see a QB do QB things.
I love Colt McCoy. I hope he’s here when/if we are good.
Andrew, is it possible that you are defining a QB as “elite” based on whether or not they won (multiple) Super Bowls? i.e. Did anyone think Brady was “elite” before he won his first SB? Did anyone think Big Ben was “elite” before he won his? How we define “elite” has a lot to do w/ what we should expect from Colt. If winning a SB is necessary to be considered “elite”, then if Colt wins one, he’ll have a shot at being “elite”. If not, well then, maybe not.
We know that Colt was an elite college quarterback. He has the right attitude, is a natural leader, and he makes a ton of good decisions on the field despite having only started nine games. His arm strength is good, his mobility is good, his vision is good, his leadership is good, and his attitude is as good as it gets. We should be thrilled to have Colt McCoy as our quarterback–I know I am. As a previous poster proved with the “elite” quarterback stats from their game nine, Colt is on track to join that rank of elite quarterbacks. He was the winningest quarterback in college history. I’m betting on him to lead the Browns to great things in the future.
A previous poster (travis) made an excellent comparison between Colt and ‘elite’ quarterbacks after only starting their ninth game. Colt is better then the majority of these quarterbacks at this point. You guys in Cleveland have a great QB you just dont realize yet, it seems. Also I believe you have to look at other pieces of the puzzle in order to form a better comparion, RB, Defense, WR, Coaching, Play Calling, etc… It takes time for a team to come together especially in a new offense. Give your team time to grow and it looks like the Browns will be heading to the playoffs sooner then you think. Tom Brady is a great leader, as is Drew Brees, as is Peyton Manning, as is Aaron Rogers, as is Colt McCoy. Leadership is probably the most important thing you guys are forgetting.
We all know where this is going! Just watch how much time Colt gets to find a receiver, let alone throw to him with any accuracy! He wont make elite status in cleveland, but he will make the dl in cleveland!!! Doomed….were in cleveland!
Give him time…the microwave society strikes again.
He will lead and the team will follow. No player can do it by himself.