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March 8, 2011
So the Indians have a gaping hole the size of Grand Canyon at third base and a top prospect allegedly a year away from making his impact on the Major League level. They spent the winter evaluating the free agent market (more like the non-tender market) in search of an affordable one year stop-gap. When Spring Training rolled around a few weeks ago, the Tribe entered camp with nothing new at third except for internal candidates, one of whom has never played the position.
Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
However, something has occurred over the first few weeks of may be forcing the Tribe’s hand. Lonnie Chisenhall is looking more and more like a viable option for 2011 while the other third base options are either injured or not performing as well as the Indians would like.
In the meantime “The Chiz Kid” continues to get more and more love from scouts and baseball writers that have seen him this Spring. You hear “sweet swing” and “natural hitter” continuously in the praise of the Tribe’s Third Baseman of the future. The question is, why can’t the future be now?
Through yesterday, Chisenhall has 17 plate appearances and his hitting .556 (7-15) with two homers, four RBIs, and a team high 15 total bases. The 23- year old hasn’t looked overwhelmed at the plate or in the field thus far. I know, its still early in the Spring, but by the looks of it, Chisenhall is coming on hard.
Which brings us to the other internal options. The leader in the clubhouse for the job is Jason Donald. JD has never played third base in his career and has been working hard to make the conversion. I am a Donald fan; his scrappy play and solid work ethic are admirable qualities, but he is more cut out to be the utility man than a starter at the hot corner, which is usually a power position. The one thing Donald certainly does not have, is power.
That said, he has taken well to the position thus far and has looked comfortable there. His growth was slowed a little Saturday when he was hit on the top of his left hand with a pitch. Luckily for the Indians and for Donald, the x-rays were negative and he is listed as day to day and will resume regular baseball activities as early as today.
Meanwhile, Jared Goedert, who was at one time last year the AAA Flavor of the Month, all but eliminated himself from the mix by pulling an oblique muscle. He will be out for a couple of weeks. “I don’t think we’re going to be seeing him in camp anymore,” said manager Manny Acta yesterday.
That leaves Luis Valbuena and Jack Hannahan as the other healthy players getting reps at Third.
So to recap – Jason Donald who has never played the position is the front runner, Jared Goedert has all but been eliminated, and the great “Sweet” Luis Valbuena and Jack Hannahan are still getting their shots.
After reading that last sentence, how can it be possible that the Tribe’s front office still wants to keep Chisenhall in AAA to start the season?
I know their argument – he is still 23 years old, has never seen a AAA at-bat and he needs more seasoning in the field. While some of that may be true, we all know the real reason Chisenhall will start in AAA – service time.
Essentially if the Indians keep him down until June 1st, its an extra year of service time they will have him under their control. But you know something, the Third Base problem isn’t going away and if Chisenhall keeps raking this way in Spring, how can you keep him off the team?
Acta himself said over the weekend that the time to win is now and he expects to do so. “That’s our expectation. If not, we would just go home. Why waste our time?” he said. I like hearing that. Acta and GM Chris Antonetti, if they truly feel that way, must put their absolute best lineup on the field come opening day, regardless of the age or experience of their prized prospect. If Chisenhall is ready, get him up here.
Remember, last year the Indians went on and on about how Carlos Santana needed more time behind the plate and his English needed work? That lasted until the Tribe was desperate for some additional offensive punch. Santana was recalled and immediately placed in the three hole. I guess his work behind the dish and his English got progressively better over a two and a half month period huh?
Maybe I am wrong and the right move is to protect Chisenhall until he proves it at AAA, but the Indians lack of a real Third Base option gives me delusions of grandeur about the kid’s potential. Orlando Cabrera is already playing out of position at Second Base and now the odds are Donald will start at Third. This will make exactly half of the of the infield playing an unnatural position. I’m not saying this is Ryan Garko playing Left Field or anything like that, but it is definitely a concern.
Let us see how Chisenhall finishes the Spring. My hope is that he continues to rake and forces the Indians to keep him.
40 Comments
In this case, I think the Indians are right keeping him the minors until June 1. I agree with everything written in the article. But, I think its safe to say the Indians are a year or two away from realistically contending and it makes sense in the current economic environment to keep that extra year of service time, look at it this way, we get to see Chiz for half of this year for free, and we delay his departure to one of the Big 8 for an extra year, makes sense to me. God, I used to love baseball.
They’ll never say so publicly but it all comes down to service time. Just like it did with Santana. If they bring them up before a certain time of the season the player can get enough time to use up a non arbitration year. With the Indians these days, I don’t think any amount of talent will overcome that.
There have been plenty of examples of young players who rake in Spring Training, but can’t translate that to the regular season.
If he starts in Cleveland and bombs, then it’s a double whammy: 1) his service clock starts, and 2) it wrecks his confidence (kind of like LaPorta in 2009).
Let him start in Columbus and prove that this is no fluke. I don’t think his bat in the lineup will be the difference between playoffs and no playoffs this year, anyway.
This reminds me of 1994 when Mike Hargrove wanted to keep a platoon of Wayne Kirby and Ruben Amaro in right field rather than have Manny Ramirez on the team for Opening Day.
If Chisenhall shows he can cut it through the rest of spring training, give him the position. He’s not going to break.
Rookies start from day one in the NBA and NFL, only baseball continues this quaint, old-fashioned notion of needing “seasoning.”
Oh, and the service time argument is valid and will probably ultimately decide the issue. These are still the Indians we’re talking about after all.
What a dumb rule. service time. MLB sucks. No youtube, no twitter, arbitration hearings, 5 dollar hot dogs, 20 dollar beers, steroids, ties allowed in all star games. Jose Canseco’s gigantic forehead.
I hope the Dolan rubs his empty wallet on Shapiro’s crotch all day.
Service time matters (you really want to see him leave Cleveland a year earlier, or get paid, forcing someone else to?)
But geez, he had a decent but not great year in AA last year. He’s not ready, a week into spring training aside. Take off the rose colored glasses. Patience.
.278/.351/.450 in AA is nothing to get -this- excited about. He’s not Albert Pujols, and more time in AAA working out how to read breaking balls, refine mechanics, etc. can only be useful.
Seriously, STOP paying attention to spring training stats, especially early ST stats when pitchers are just stretching themselves out.
or we could follow the Evan Longoria blueprint. he plays in the minors a week or two, they call him up-mid April, he continues to rake, they sign him to a 9-10 year deal and he keeps up an all-star level. everybody’s happy.
@5 you are awesome.
In 1993, Manny Ramirez hit .333/.417/.613 between AA and AAA.
In 2010, Lonnie Chisenhall hit .278/.351/.450 in AA.
The comparison does not fit one single iota.
Sadly, this seems to be a no-brainer given the lack of a level playing field in MLB: service time has to be the priority. I hate that we have to be so conservative in our approach, but that’s the system we have to work with. This team is not contending for much more than third place in the Central this year anyway.
Laughable. “Service time.” You wonder why these Indians are a joke and why they won’t have anywhere near 2 million fans show up for games. “Service time” is the worst four-letter word Tribe “brass” can spew.
It’s an endless cycle of rebuilding and another reason why I won’t be attending the Jake for the fourth straight season.
In 2007 between AA and AAA, Evan Longoria hit .299/.402/.520. Again, drastically better than Chisenhall last year.
We need to pull back on expectations here. He’s not at that sort of level yet.
Does anyone want to make a defense that Chisenhall is objectively ready for the big leagues without either making outsized comparisons (longoria or manny) or by just sneering at Jason Donald?
Anyone?
BTW, in his last year in AA, Donald hit .307/.391/.497, better than what Chisenhall has done so far. He’s not as good a prospect because of age concerns, but Donald is getting unfair reputation due to 1) a knee injury in 2009 and 2) normal growing pains of a rookie year. He’s a guy who deserves a fair look at the MLB level.
By the way, we aren’t settled on “Chiz Kid” as the nickname for this guy, are we?
Plus, if Donald plays it gives the Tribe a chance to save face for the awful Lee trade. Hey, Chisenhall is 23, he’s not 19. Players are supposed to be in their prime from 22-28, so if he continues to hit and can catch a ground ball without pulling a hammy, start him in the bigs. Donald can still be used when the O-Cabrera experiment ends in trade and/or A-Cabrera gets hurt again.
The Chiz stands alone!
Chiz Wiz!
The Lee trade will be determined by the success of Carrasco and Knapp, not Donald.
And Donald at 2b is silly – by midseason Kipnis will be there anyways. Chizenhall’s timetable before ST was further away. Don’t get caught up in early spring training results, good or bad. Look at the big picture.
But also don’t discount the adrenaline a prospect can inject into the lineup. Of course, don’t judge Chiz yet (Geez…17 AB’s) but if he rakes all spring long, play him. The same holds true for Donald. But, please don’t send Chiz down if he has a monster spring and use seasoning or service time as excuses. This team needs a quick start and some life. I spend a lot of time in Atlanta and the life that Heyward shot into the Braves last year was great. If the kid can do it, why not…and the same holds for Donald although he has somewhat already given us a glimpse of his talents at the MLB level.
For my sake, I hope he’s sent down to Columbus for a few months…just like Santana, I’d love to see him play in person, but it’s a lot more justifiable for $6 and a 5 mile drive as opposed to $20 and 120.
Monster springs are meaningless. Chiz hits well against AA guys or pitchers working on a new changeup so he’s ready for Mark Buerlhe on opening day? Look to his established level of performance in 2010.
Also meaningless, adrenaline jumps from prospects. There’s no evidence that is real, much less theories. It’s a weird assertion. Good prospects help, bad ones don’t. Chiz is not ready.
Well, if monster springs are meaningless then why do teams spend 6 weeks in Florida and Arizona? And why do teams allow minor leaguers to play in the games? And if he hits well against AA guys, then what is the point of sending him to AAA? So he can hit .350 and we can call him up once we’re 15 games out. And honestly the back end of MLB rotations aren’t exactly stellar. Lots of prospects and fringe players. The top propsects are generally found in AA. Look, no one is saying that he is ready or if he is capable of putting up Longoria-type numbers. The odds are favorable that he won’t. But what is wrong with putting your best team on the field? If Chiz proves capable the next few months I think the Indians owe it to him and to their fans to put him in the lineup. Baseball is a business. Exciting players put people in seats and in case you haven’t noticed, not much of NE Ohio has much faith in the Tribe these days. I doubt that watching Jason Donald hit the occasional single from the #9 spot in the lineup will do much to benefit the fans or the product on the field.
I really think we should see some of Donald at 3B. He will be entering his first season on an opening day roster. No reason to toss him into the scrap heap so quickly.
If fine with more “seeing what the kids have” this year. The Johnson/Cabrera/Durbin signings also. This year it’s fine with me but next year I don’t want any Russel Branyan, Mike Redmond, or Orlando Cabrera.
Let’s bring up the rest of the kids half way through this year, dump off the dead weight this offseason, and be ready to try for a playoff run next year. Because at the end of the day you aren’t going to make the playoffs this year with Masterson as your #2 starter and Austin Kearns as your #6 hitter.
I’m with John on this one.
It takes patience and time to create a winning organization in any sport but especially baseball (for a small market team at least). Clevelanders have to know this already. So why reach for yet another quick fix? Why rush a guy? Even if we weren’t pennypinchers, why waste a year of service for what’ll be a down year? (Also, Acta is just saying what he’s supposed to.) Complaining about the way the system work doesn’t change the fact that giving Chisenhall another year in the minors is the way to go.
And like John said, Chisenhall is no Manny or Longoria. And even those numbers haven’t been all that amazing. Compare his #s to Andy Marte’s.
Service time? Seventeen at-bats and we’re talking service time? Let’s see, the established pitchers are still stretching out their arms for a couple of innings max and guys are mostly trying not to rip hammies. Little early even to crown him the next Karl Pagel.
Someone brought up Hargrove being forced to put Manny on the roster…if memory serves Charlie demanded CC Sabathia be on the roster. To hell with service time….give the kid a shot if he’s earned it. The fact we even have to have this debate shows what’s wrong with MLB and the Indians in particular.
I’m tired of rebuilding but I can buy into a rebuild a heck of a lot easier than I can a team like last year which featured Russell Branyan taking at bats away from Matt LaPorta. Only in baseball is a 23 year old considered “young.” Colt McCoy is 23 and he looks like a keeper at QB. I hate to say his name but anyone remember what LeBron James was doing at the Q when he was 23? Yep, he was dominating.
If the Chiz proves he’s the better man put him on the bloody roster and let him stay there until he plays way off of it.
Sheesh. Only in Cleveland does going 7-for-15 in Spring Training get you compared to Lebron James, Manny Ramirez, and Evan Longoria.
As for rookies in football and basketball starting, those sports are to baseball like kittens are to catfish. Sometimes I wonder if people actually pay attention to how baseball works.
“By the way, we aren’t settled on “Chiz Kid” as the nickname for this guy, are we?”
Given that that’s exactly what he calls himself, I’d say “we” will “settle” for such.
Thank you Reggie Ruckus…Well said! Fans need to stop setting themselves up with a loser mentality before the year even starts and making “mid-market” excuses. That was always the Shapiro excuse. The Tribe plays in the AL Central, a very winnable division. Get to 85 wins and you have a shot. Again, for argument’s sake I am advocating keeping him up if he performs well the rest of the way in Spring Training. If he doesn’t, he’ll be in AAA. It ain’t like he’s stuck behind an All Star 3B (or Casey Blake for that matter). Get excited about this team and demand something more than 90+ loss seasons.
Not to nitpick, but you left out Nix on the list of possible 3rd basemen.
Does anyone think there’s a better option at 3rd? If the kid earns his spot, there’s no reason to keep him in the minors.
Service time, economics, etc. What an organization we follow.
Check @cheaplarrydolan on twitter, at least it gets me to laugh at this sad situation.
@31 – I want to see Donald and to a lesser extent Nix. (I’m also maybe the last believer that Valbuena can cut it, but I prefer him at 2B.)
Count me as someone who has a hard time believing a young AA star can earn a spot on a major league roster during spring training. In this game, it’s consistency and the long haul. On it’s own, ripping it up during one month of exhibition games doesn’t prove much to me. It’s a positive mark, but needs a body of work to go alongside it. And again, while his AA #’s are good, they’re far from outstanding.
I don’t see how giving those two guys a few months to prove themselves and Chiz some time at AAA is a bad idea. Patience.
Okay, I’m in Arizona and catching three ST games this week… I went today. Saw Chiz go 4-5 while the rest of our team got cut apart by Arizona, save for Choo and the SS’s. I’m sold, there’s no reason to put him through any more minor league ball. The kid’s a pure-bred ballplayer with natural talent to connect, and he does fine at 3rd. Athletes start playing professionally right out of high school sometimes, and there’s no reason to restrict his talents to the minor league circuit when he could be producing and gaining valuable experience in the MLB. Sign him up!
I think it would only help Chiz to serve a little time at AAA. The Tribe is not going to contend this year and if Chiz really rakes at Columbus e will be up soon. The service time issue is real but people act if Cleveland is the only team that does this. Really almost every team is keeping their players in the minors longer for this reason {and their fans are screaming about it just like some fans here.} I know KC fans are screaming about the Royals doing it for their top prospects.
I just want to say one thing. If by June1st we have players that are not hitting over 200 should be replace with talented players that are. Thanks
IMHO if he hits well enough the rest of the Spring he should be on the big league teams opening day roster. That being said it will not happen. The Service Times issue will win out. I know that the Indians aren’t the only team that takes this into consideration but it sure seems to cloud all their decisions. This is a sad commentary on all of MLB in general and the Indians organization specifically where the best players are not on the field do this stupid loophole. You “play the game to win”.
It’s funny, this article asks ‘why not now’ then does a much better job explaining why Chisenhall shouldn’t be up. Does anyone remember when Mike Rouse put up a +1.000 OPS in spring training 2007? No, because spring training numbers are all about selective memory, and its improper to use even a full spring training’s worth of numbers to justify anything. Guys go down there to get stretched out, and test out things like adjustments to their change-up grip or batting stance. Let’s be patient with the kid, the odds that his first 2 months could make or break this 2011 team are slim to none. The priority is to make sure you get a good 6-7 seasons out of him, not to hope for a hot 1-2 months.
It’s great to get excited about Lonnie but he is hitting spring training pitches right now , guy who are shaking off the rust. I say start him in triple A lets see how he fairs down there then move him up, if he keeps hitting.There is no need to rush him ,we need more then him to win this year.
P.S.
I hope that nick name does not stick
[…] in AAA Columbus right now, but our own DP, who covers the Clippers, was the first to point out that The Chiz Kid might not have been the next in line. Chisenhall came off the DL hotter than anything. Prior to […]